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Thread: Detonics STX - striker fired polymer 1911

  1. #11
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spyderco monkey View Post
    At this point the Glock mag is the AR mag of 9x19. It's an open source mag available from multiple manufacturers. And like the AR mag, nearly everyone already has some.
    It's not open source if you have to lease the intellectual property to build one. The Magpul and ETS designs are effectively proprietary in their own right.

    I'd argue this very proliferation of Glock mags is also a core part of Glocks ability to fend off competing pistols, despite these new designs being cheaper, better ergonomics, and better triggers.
    I would argue Glock's continued market dominance has to do with both their ability to compete for and win LE and military contracts, that their price point has stayed almost flat, and historical inertia. Agencies are loathe to change anything that seems to work fine.

    CZ designed the P10c to use most Glock holsters. But if they actually wanted a chance at being a viable Glock competitor, they should have designed it to take G19 mags and sights. I know I would have bought one. Whereas the prospect of buying 10-20x new $35-44 mags has kept me out of most new pistol designs.
    While I understand what you're driving at, the reality is again, needing to license proprietary magazine design from Glock or sell a product with sub-par magazines and sub-par reliability. That's not a good winning formula for a product. Also, companies want to make the money on the accessories, they have a higher profit margin than guns do. From a financial perspective...it doesn't make sense to pay someone else license fees and lose profit by not making your own accessories.

    Rifle manufacturers have learned to standardize on AR mags if they want any traction in the US market. Pistol manufacturers would be very wise to heed this lesson.
    Those aren't comparable. The AR15 magazine is a shared design underneath a NATO Draft Standard Agreement (hence STANAG). That is a set of specifications that are open source in many respects. The Glock magazine is not a STANAG design, neither is the Beretta M9/92x, the XM17 magazine, etc. They are all proprietary to their platforms and designs.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    It's not open source if you have to lease the intellectual property to build one. The Magpul and ETS designs are effectively proprietary in their own right.


    While I understand what you're driving at, the reality is again, needing to license proprietary magazine design from Glock or sell a product with sub-par magazines and sub-par reliability. That's not a good winning formula for a product. Also, companies want to make the money on the accessories, they have a higher profit margin than guns do. From a financial perspective...it doesn't make sense to pay someone else license fees and lose profit by not making your own accessories.
    They don't need to pay license fees to use Glock compatible magazines; If the Hudson 2.0 ships with a Magpul/ETS/KCI Glock style magazine, they don't have to pay a dime to their Austrian overlords.

    Many manufacturers already make Glock mag compatible weapons:
    -B&T
    -Ruger
    -KelTec
    -MPA
    -Lone Wolf
    -Polymer 80
    -ZEV
    -Shadow systems
    -CMMG
    -Like a dozen different 9x19 AR variants

    Likewise, most proprietary mags are not made by the firearms manufacturer, but by MecGar. In that sense, buying Magpul or KCI etc 'Glock' mags at wholesale is really no different then using MecGar as the OEM.

    While there certainly is money to be made selling proprietary mags, there would be a lot more overall pistol sales for these Glock competitors if they took Glock mags. They could even raise their prices for their pistols, and still sell more; If there was a choice between a $420 CZ P10C or a $520 P10'G' that took Glock mags, my money is on the P10G far outselling the C despite their higher price.

    Likewise, if someone makes an aftermarket P320 Grip frame that allows it to take Glock mags, there would be a lot more interest in that platform.

    A notable parallel would be the 1911 market - all the single stack 1911's all use the same magazines regardless of manufacturer. 1911 companies are not making proprietary single stack mags to cash in on the aftermarket, because pistol sales would tank.
    Last edited by spyderco monkey; 08-30-2019 at 08:08 PM.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by spyderco monkey View Post
    They don't need to pay license fees to use Glock compatible magazines; If the Hudson 2.0 ships with a Magpul/ETS/KCI Glock style magazine, they don't have to pay a dime to their Austrian overlords.

    Many manufacturers already make Glock mag compatible weapons:
    -B&T
    -Ruger
    -KelTec
    -MPA
    -Lone Wolf
    -Polymer 80
    -ZEV
    -Shadow systems
    -CMMG
    -Like a dozen different 9x19 AR variants

    Likewise, most proprietary mags are not made by the firearms manufacturer, but by MecGar. In that sense, buying Magpul or KCI etc 'Glock' mags at wholesale is really no different then using MecGar as the OEM.

    While there certainly is money to be made selling proprietary mags, there would be a lot more overall pistol sales for these Glock competitors if they took Glock mags. They could even raise their prices for their pistols, and still sell more; If there was a choice between a $420 CZ P10C or a $520 P10'G' that took Glock mags, my money is on the P10G far outselling the C despite their higher price.

    Likewise, if someone makes an aftermarket P320 Grip frame that allows it to take Glock mags, there would be a lot more interest in that platform.

    A notable parallel would be the 1911 market - all the single stack 1911's all use the same magazines regardless of manufacturer. 1911 companies are not making proprietary single stack mags to cash in on the aftermarket, because pistol sales would tank.
    If manufacturers made their striker fired plastic pistols able to take Glock mags, I would be way more inclined to try a new pistol. As it is, my only deviation from Glock has been to Shadow Systems because I am heavily invested in Glock mags.

  4. #14
    A 1911 gun has a hammer. Don't know why anyone would call it a 1911. It's more like a Glock.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Pistol Pete 10 View Post
    A 1911 gun has a hammer. Don't know why anyone would call it a 1911. It's more like a Glock.
    It has the most important feature of the 1911 - the sliding single action trigger.

    Thats the core aspect of the 1911 that people are after.

  6. #16
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spyderco monkey View Post
    They don't need to pay license fees to use Glock compatible magazines; If the Hudson 2.0 ships with a Magpul/ETS/KCI Glock style magazine, they don't have to pay a dime to their Austrian overlords.

    Many manufacturers already make Glock mag compatible weapons:
    -B&T
    -Ruger
    -KelTec
    -MPA
    -Lone Wolf
    -Polymer 80
    -ZEV
    -Shadow systems
    -CMMG
    -Like a dozen different 9x19 AR variants
    You’re mixing platforms. Lone Wolf, Zev, Shadow Systems all make reframed Glocks. Not wholly new handguns that use Glock magazines.


    Likewise, most proprietary mags are not made by the firearms manufacturer, but by MecGar. In that sense, buying Magpul or KCI etc 'Glock' mags at wholesale is really no different then using MecGar as the OEM.
    Except the quality difference.


    While there certainly is money to be made selling proprietary mags, there would be a lot more overall pistol sales for these Glock competitors if they took Glock mags. They could even raise their prices for their pistols, and still sell more; If there was a choice between a $420 CZ P10C or a $520 P10'G' that took Glock mags, my money is on the P10G far outselling the C despite their higher price.

    Likewise, if someone makes an aftermarket P320 Grip frame that allows it to take Glock mags, there would be a lot more interest in that platform.
    I would take that bet. I’m not sure if you’ve ever sold guns or worked in purchasing for a gunstore - but the cheaper product outsells the more expensive one. Most buyers aren’t you or me. They are looking for cheap things. Hell most buyers don’t even buy extra spare magazines.

    And the P320 seems to be selling fine. And will continue to do so, due to the MHS Contract.

    Glock continues to hold market share because of contracts, acceptable quality, and historical inertia. No one is going to “out Glock” Glock. Appeasing the miniscule market of gun owners who own lots of Glock magazines is a losing proposition financially.

    A notable parallel would be the 1911 market - all the single stack 1911's all use the same magazines regardless of manufacturer. 1911 companies are not making proprietary single stack mags to cash in on the aftermarket, because pistol sales would tank.
    Kind of - except no one considers factory 1911 magazines to be superior to aftermarket, unless you’re buying a Wilson Combat. The opposite is true for Glock, everyone considers the OE magazine to be superior to aftermarket options.

    And there are several proprietary magazine 1911-pattern guns out there. The Springfield EMP series is the first thst pops to mind.



    There are some other engineering issues with using the Glock magazine in a 1911-sized/shaped pistol. The angle of the column means the trigger bow would be slanted as opposed to straight. This will change the geometry interaction with the sear affecting trigger pull. As a result, it changes feed angle and barrel lockup.

    Several folks have tried, but no one has made it work. There is simply a packaging problem for putting a trigger bow- that produces the straight back pull, around a Glock magazine. This is why Hudson opted for the 3rd Gen smith mag, which has less pronounced angle to the magazine body. It’s why Wilson Combat opted for a Walther PPQ-derived magazine for the EDC9.

    And it’s why a striker-fired “1911” using Glock magazines doesn’t actually exist. The Detonics STX used a modified version of an STI magazine.

    By the by, if you haven’t compared the wall thickness of a Glock magazine to a 3rd Gen Smith and/or other metal bodied 9mm magazine - you should. The polymer mags are thicker, even when steel lined. Which also plays a role in getting a trigger bow around them. You can’t fit an STI bowed trigger over a Glock mag, even if the angle were changed. This means the whole gun needs to be fatter to handle the Glock mag.



    Really again, I understand why you want such a thing, but it would ultimately by a pulsating sack of fail, because of the compromises necessary to make it work.

    And really guys - new guns come with two or three mags. You can shoot a few matches with just three mags. Buy something new and try it, if you like it - then buy some more mags. If not, trade it off for another Glock. It’s okay to have different kinds of magazines.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    You’re mixing platforms. Lone Wolf, Zev, Shadow Systems all make reframed Glocks. Not wholly new handguns that use Glock magazines.

    Yes, but this goes to show there are no 'licensing fees' to use Glock mags in non-glock pistols.


    Except the quality difference.

    Right, but the 'P10G' or other Glock compatible pistol would just ship with 1x Glock style magazine, counting on the user to either already have a ready supply of Glock mags, or to just purchase more of whatever brand they prefer.


    I would take that bet. I’m not sure if you’ve ever sold guns or worked in purchasing for a gunstore - but the cheaper product outsells the more expensive one. Most buyers aren’t you or me. They are looking for cheap things. Hell most buyers don’t even buy extra spare magazines.

    But are these buyers of cheap things really buying the CZ P10 or Hudson H9 or Walther PPQ etc Glock alternatives?I suspect most of the sales for these non-Glock, non cheap (ie Ruger/Canik etc) pistols are being sold to the multiple gun owner.

    And the P320 seems to be selling fine. And will continue to do so, due to the MHS Contract.

    Right, but prior to winning the MHS contract, the P320 was not taking over the world. And winning the MHS contract is a one time event - its not a strategy that any other pistol can replicate. Leaving them to find alternate methods of drawing market share - of which Glock compatibility would be the simplest and most successful differentiator.

    Glock continues to hold market share because of contracts, acceptable quality, and historical inertia. No one is going to “out Glock” Glock. Appeasing the miniscule market of gun owners who own lots of Glock magazines is a losing proposition financially.

    I agree, no one is going to out Glock Glock. But that actually lends further support for other pistol companies to embrace the Glock mag compatibility - any pistol that takes Glock mags will be on the short list for a pistol purchase by existing Glock owners. And Glock mag compatibility will cut the legs from under the other Glock competitors out there that take proprietary mags. So while the 'P10G' would not replace the Glock 19 in popularity, it would absolutely dominate the P10C, PPQ, VP9, APX, etc and become a solid competitor as the '#2' pistol.


    There are some other engineering issues with using the Glock magazine in a 1911-sized/shaped pistol. The angle of the column means the trigger bow would be slanted as opposed to straight. This will change the geometry interaction with the sear affecting trigger pull. As a result, it changes feed angle and barrel lockup.

    Several folks have tried, but no one has made it work.

    Has anyone tried to make a Glock mag 1911?


    And really guys - new guns come with two or three mags. You can shoot a few matches with just three mags. Buy something new and try it, if you like it - then buy some more mags. If not, trade it off for another Glock. It’s okay to have different kinds of magazines.
    The thing is, high capacity pistol mags will not be around forever; I would count ourselves very lucky if they are available 5 years from now. Which means that if I like a pistol, and plan to have it in the future, I'm going to be buying 10-20 mags for it, with the expectation that they may have to last me and my kids lifetimes.

    And this is another thing recommending Glock mag compatibility. Post AWB/Mag Ban, Glock mags will be far and away the most widely available 'pre-ban' magazine, by a huge margin. If someone buys a post-ban pistol that takes Glock mags, they have a pretty good chance of snagging a few pre-bans to go with it. The odds of finding pre-ban CZP10 mags.... much less.

    Further, the very thick, polymer nature of the Glock mag makes it the ideal AWB magazine, because unlike a thin wall metal magazine, Glock mags can be 3D printed.

    Already, we are at the point where a $200 3D printer can make functional Glock mags, using only $0.87 in plastic:
    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...ock-magazines/

    In 5 years, printers will have progressed to the point where their printing resolution is even finer, and lower end printers will be able to print in Carbon Fiber Reinforced Polymer, such as used in the MakerX, which produces parts stonger then commercial injection moulded glass filled nylon.

    So the Glock mag is not only the most common 9x19 magazine today, but it is far and away the most viable post-ban magazine of the future.

    My replies in bold.

  8. #18
    All this mag talk, Springfield, HK, and Beretta have all had promos where for little to no upcost, you get 5 or so mags with the gun. Wonder what impact that had for sales.

  9. #19
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spyderco monkey View Post
    My replies in bold.
    Alchemy Arms tried once - https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...-arms-spectre/ - Really that's just a Glock side on a Glock frame, with a backstrap flattened to the 1911 grip angle.

    There is really no way to make a Glock magazine work in a 2011. Seriously. Just start with the fact that the magazines angle differently and remember that the angle that the Glock magazine presents a round for feeding is almost 4º different from a 1911. 4º in engineering terms is basically the distance between Earth and Mars. It's not really close at all. Requisite changes to the lockwork geometry will require a completely new slide and totally proprietary lockwork.

    The closest thing to what you're asking for is a Glock frame with a 1911 grip angle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    All this mag talk, Springfield, HK, and Beretta have all had promos where for little to no upcost, you get 5 or so mags with the gun. Wonder what impact that had for sales.
    Right? In the scheme of things, a brand new Glock 19 Gen-5 OEM magazine is $24.99 an HK VP9 OEM magazine is $32.99. The difference there is EIGHT bucks. Multiple that by 10 magazines, the difference is 80 bucks...I know "that's 3-more Glock mags". The thing is...HK magazines are so vastly superior to Glock magazines, that you'll likely not wear out five HK mags in the time it takes to wear out 10 Glock mags.

    And just to kind of belabor the point a bit. Glock magazines are really just okay in terms of their design. Their advantages are being cheap and plentiful. HK mags, CZ mags, Beretta mags are actually all superior to the Glock in terms of both construction and reliability in many respects. Besides being cheap, there isn't a good reason to select Glock magazines over another, unless you're marketing something to a very narrow market (think Maxim 9 or AR9s for PCC).

    Even then Glock-mag-fed AR9s are almost but still not quite as reliable as Colt-SMG-mag-fed AR9s.
    Last edited by RevolverRob; 08-31-2019 at 10:21 PM.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    Alchemy Arms tried once - https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...-arms-spectre/ - Really that's just a Glock side on a Glock frame, with a backstrap flattened to the 1911 grip angle.

    Great find. That is actually getting close to what I'm after. Obviously better executed and without the grip safety, weird keyed lock, and reputation for poor quality control...but the concept is getting there.

    Basically it doesn't need to strictly be a 1911/2011. What matters is really just a Sliding Single Action trigger, as thats the most desirable aspect of the 1911.



    Right? In the scheme of things, a brand new Glock 19 Gen-5 OEM magazine is $24.99 an HK VP9 OEM magazine is $32.99. The difference there is EIGHT bucks. Multiple that by 10 magazines, the difference is 80 bucks...I know "that's 3-more Glock mags". The thing is...HK magazines are so vastly superior to Glock magazines, that you'll likely not wear out five HK mags in the time it takes to wear out 10 Glock mags.

    That's not a fair comparison in a number of respects.

    To begin, we can get a Glock OEM magazine today for as low as $18; $20 being very common:
    https://gun.deals/search/apachesolr_search/764503170171

    Whereas the cheapest VP9 mag today is $31:
    https://gun.deals/search/apachesolr_search/642230244344

    So the VP9 mag is 42% more expensive. A Glock 17 ($550) + 10 mags ($180) would be $730 vs VP9 ($550) +10 mags ($310) = $860. So even with the pistols costing the same, the mag price makes the overall package $130 more expensive. Conversely, for the price of 10x VP9 mags you could have 17x Glock mags.

    But that misses the core aspect of the Glock mag as 'AR Mag of Pistols.' By standardizing magazines, there is no need to keep buying magazines with each new pistol purchase. This is the core goal, and dramatically cuts down the barrier to entry for acquiring multiple platforms.

    Example: Shooter purchases a Glock 17, which comes with 3 mags. Then they purchase another 10x as spares. $730.

    Next year, he purchases a 'VP9G,' which comes with 2x Magpul G17 mags. $550.

    Now, as the 'VP9G' shares mags with his G17, there is no need to purchase more mags, as between his 2 pistols there is 15 mags between them. $310 has been removed from his pistol acquisition cycle. Further, he only needs to bring 1x style of magazine to the range, or stash in his vehicle, house, battle belt, etc.

    A year later, he buys a 'PX4G' to try DA/SA, which comes with 2x magpul G17 mags....

    This very utopia is standard with modern rifles, which all take AR mags. You could own an AR, Bren, Tavor, and ARX, and rather then buying 10x different magazines for each, they can all share your 1x set of 20 PSA AR mags that you bought for $159.


    Why shouldn't we want the same mag compatibility with our pistols?



    And just to kind of belabor the point a bit. Glock magazines are really just okay in terms of their design. Their advantages are being cheap and plentiful. HK mags, CZ mags, Beretta mags are actually all superior to the Glock in terms of both construction and reliability in many respects. Besides being cheap, there isn't a good reason to select Glock magazines over another, unless you're marketing something to a very narrow market (think Maxim 9 or AR9s for PCC).

    I would say 'cheap and plentiful' is quite an advantage. And while metal mags may in theory last longer, its fairly uncommon to here about a Glock magazine wearing out. And I've never heard of complaints about Glock magazine reliability.

    Pretty much the only complaint it that they are thicker. And for purpose built thin pistols like the P365 or G48, thats a valid concern. For fullsize duty pistols like the P10/VP9/PPQ, which are all as thick as the Glock, we're not seeing any thiness advantage by the use of metal mags.

    Further, Glock mags are available in 15/17/19/21/24/27/33/50rd capacities, whereas most metal pistol mags are available in 15/17/20rd capacities. And unlike metal mags from Mecgar, they are available from multiple manufacturers, which both reduces cost and increases availability / resistance to running out in a during a panic or import ban.
    Replies in bold.
    Last edited by spyderco monkey; 09-01-2019 at 04:29 AM.

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