I bought my wife, fiancé at the time, a G22C for an engagement gift. (Yes, she also got a ring). I remember buying her factory 15 round pre-ban mags for $75 each. I also remember G17 mags going for $105.Originally Posted by Bergeron
Better deals at that time could be had on Beretta and Sig mags because there were a whole lot more in circulation at the time. Some people made out really well during the “dark ages”.
Cash
Profit margins on accessories are almost double those on guns and are still low. Profits on firearms are about 12-15% dealer costs to the manufacturer, the dealer usually has a margin of 15% max over cost. Accessories are usually 20-30% profit margins over cost.
Setting aside the absolute inanity of making every gun on the planet work with a Glock magazine due to design constraints. It makes no financial sense for the gun companies. Regardless of what you think. Gun sales are not driven by enthusiasts, they are driven by volume buys from consumers who buy one or two guns at most. Several of us, myself included, have sold guns for a living. I’ve worked in purchasing for a major national sporting goods retailer, specializing in firearms and firearm accessories. Profits are extremely slim compared to other types of markets in the firearms world.
Gun sales reality:
Fancy camo patterns shotguns and sparkly painted Taurus pistols outsell Glocks by 4:1. They outsell HKs by 100:1.
If your market share is small, you do not compromise it, period. The end.
Many pistol mags are based on the Beretta design. One reason Bill Wilson settled on the PPQ mag for the EDC X9 is because the PPQ mag is based on the Beretta mag and considered to be the most reliable double stack pistol mag design. This information I got directly from Ken Hackathorn.
The outside width of the grip is the same, but the circumference of the PPQ is smaller and is circular, whereas the Glock grip is blocky. Note the difference in the magwell dimensions. The Glock magwell is much larger and wider than the PPQ magwell. The size of the Glock magwell forces the grip into a block shape unless the outside dimensions are enlarged. The smaller magwell dimensions required to house the Beretta family of magazines gives the designer more room to work with in shaping the grip.The PPQ has a much more comfortable grip. Its actually based on real ergonomics.
But its just as thick as the Glock:
In theory a metal mag pistol could be made thinner, that just doesn't seem to actually be born out in practice in any of the modern duty pistols.
Which then begs the question, what is the actual payoff to having all these different proprietary metal mags?
Using metal mags with their thinner walls gives designers a distinct advantage designing new handguns. Look at how small the grip is on the new P365. It holds ten rounds while being as close in size to the Glock 43 that it makes no practical difference. If the Sig magazine were made of plastic, there wouldn't be room to fit ten rounds in such a small package. In fact, the magwell needed to fit the single stack mag of the 43 is so wide that a company is working to develop a double stack mag steel of greater capacity to fit it.
Take a look at Glocks chambered for 45 ACP. The double stack Glock 45 ACP magazine is even wider than those for the 9mm resulting in an even wider grip with the ergonomics of a block of wood. Compare that to the PPQ45 which uses a steel 12 round double stack magazine. The pistol is noticeably larger than the PPQ in 9mm, but it's surprisingly small for a 45 ACP. It's no larger than an 8 shot Colt Commander and it's shape fills the hand nicely. No way the PPQ45 would be possible with a Glock magazine.
AR magazines work because they are size efficient. They're about as compact as possible and still fit a 5.56. Glock mags are not. The material thickness and angle means they take up more room than necessary. People think that certain pistols could be "Glock Killers" if they accepted Glock magazines. The Glock magazine is the primary reason people who are looking for a "Glock Killer" are looking for a "Glock Killer" in the first place.
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The P250, particularly with the small grip module, has a substantially smaller grip circumference than the Glock.Yes they are, but what I'm saying is these metal mag high cap pistols are not thinner then the Glock.
Holding my CZ P09 to the base of my G17, thickness is identical, despite the p09's metal mag.
My previously owned PPQ, also of the metal mag, was not thinner then my Glock.
A random pic from google:
Are any of these metal mag duty pistols actually thinner in the grip then the Glock?
My G3 Glock, which was my constant companion for 15 years, now languishes in the safe precisely because of grip size. Why do you think there is such a buzz over the possibility of 15 round metal mags for the G48/43x?
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I made the mistake of clicking on page two of this thread expecting info relevant to the topic. My mistake.
Honestly I would be thrilled if that came into fruition; if not Glock mags Beretta 92 mags would be great.
Sadly, that simple goal seems to be beyond even Beretta's capability. Instead we have this absurd situation:
Beretta 92 = 92 Mags
Beretta PX4 = PX4 Mags
Beretta APX = APX Mags
This is a function of Glock - especially then Gen 3 - having profoundly mediocre ergonomics. There are children's toy guns and power drills with more refined grips.
This is not, however, a function of the Glock magazine.
Lone Wolfs Timberwolf 2.0 magazine has really comfortable, slim ergonomics. I took this picture at SHOT a few years ago. I was amazed at how different these felt in the hand, they were reminiscent of a CZ75 but smaller in the grip:
The P365 and and G48 are outliers that would warrant a metal mag, as they are designed to be as thin as possible. I'm all aboard the G48 + Metal Mag master race, and can't wait until Shield releases that.
The majority of duty pistols though are not any thinner then the Glock, despite their metal mags.
In terms of rounded grips, that could be an issue, although to my knowledge the PPQ and VP9 are the only 2 pistols to really make use of such a 3D, sophisticated grip shape.
That said, if you look at the picture I just posted a comment above, with the Glock grip hump completely removed ala Timberwolf 2.0, there is actually a much narrower grip circumference, and room to add 3D palm swells.
As for the .45 ACP, I would never propose the G21 mag being used. Like the P365, double stack .45 ACP pistols need all the help they can get in reducing their circumference. I'd say the PPQ or Tanfoglio mag would be a good option to standardize on.
In terms of the AR mag, the reason the AR mag is used is that its the most common, and its what the customer wants. Its not at all because the AR mag is an optimal 5.56 mag- it's not. The AUG mag, for example, is far superior. Its constant curve, designed from the ground up to be polymer, allows a longer cartridge COL than is possible in the AR.
An even more ideal proprietary 5.56 mag would take the advantages of the AUG mag but extend to 2.4" COL. This would allow it to be backwards compatible with current 5.56 ammo, while allowing the use of 80+gr projectiles, as well as VLD solid copper .224 projectiles. The result would be a transformation in the capability of 5.56, as a VLD will extend the 1700fps expansion range +100-150yd beyond what the current 2.25" 5.56 COL is capable of.
In that way, the AR mag is used by all the rifle companies for exactly the reason I am advocating for the Glock mag. Its not the best mag, but its far and away the most common, and allows standardization across platforms.
I'm still not convinced the Glock magazine would be a good choice for a double action pistol. The Beretta 92 magazine mentioned above would seem to me to be a better magazine to standardize on, for all the reasons mentioned before. Plenty of those out there as well, and inexpensive to buy.
Why don't they just build a true 1911 and pin the grip safety and take the thumb safety off? Then you could really have the same trigger as a 1911, with no safety. That seems to be what everybody wants anyway.Does anyone know what ever became of this design? I know Detonics was a hit or miss brand, but the STX was a seriously cool pistol design. Essentially a Striker Fired 2011 for $1000.
http://detonicsdef.squarespace.com/stx
-modular tactical frame, designed to accept 4 barrel/slide lengths, as well as a full size or compact grip.
-striker fired trigger that also maintains the short length of pull and crispness commonly found on a single action trigger system.
If a company made a version of the STX that took Glock mags, I think they'd be printing money. Rather then debate Glock vs 1911, this would combine the best of both into one pistol.
I'm actually pretty surprised that a company hasn't come out with a striker fired SAO pistol with a 1911 style sliding trigger.
Makes me sad :-(
www.langdontactical.com
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