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Thread: Smaller Saps?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil Burch View Post

    Most of my strikes are gong to be tight arcs (think of Bas' body shot mechanics) aimed at the collar bone, jawline, shoulder, and head. Secondary targets are the limbs and ribs, and soft body targets like the liver or kidneys.

    .
    Way back in August of 2006 Craig (with the very much missed Gomez assisting) was kind enough to run a "Blackjacks & Saps" class here in the Knoxville area for our little group. Paul and I had done some work using Boston Leather Juniors and Midgets iirc prior. But, again to the best of my memory, it was this type of tight arc close in or entangled use of the sap that Craig taught that really brought home the incredible utility of this tool in that kind of a situation. It was an enlightening class, but Craig's classes always are.

    I have several saps and blackjacks, including some of the Foster Brothers excellent tools, but I particularly like carrying the Boston Leather Junior as it's grip profile seems to allow me to hang onto and control it better...and it's really inexpensive. And it rides well in my right hip pocket alongside my TQ.

    FWIW they are legal to carry in TN with impact tool training credentialing.

    Thanks for the excellent information in this thread and subforum.

  2. #32
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
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    The two strikes I practice most often are both "liver shots". One is a "slap" to the floating rib the other is a "stab" to the floating rib.
    The slap is more of a ranged attack and the stab works better in a clinch. Both work well because even if they "block" the shot you'll usually hit their elbow, which is another good target as my coach found out when we played around with a sap and him wearing a boxing body guard. He tucked his elbow (like a boxer) to block my very light sap slap and ended up with a numb arm for a few hours. If you train live with a sap go extremely light on your strikes, even if your partner is fully padded up. Sap strikes, especially stabs are no joke.

    Floating rib, tip of the elbow, wrist, collarbone, fingers, back of the hand all are excellent less/non-lethal sap strike/slap options. Slaps are generally lower force than stabs or edge strikes.
    Any sap strikes to the head should be considered deadly force with a slap to the chin probably being the least likely to kill them.

    The small black one is my favorite.
    It's a Foster #31 that's 7.25" long and 11.5 ounces.
    I had him put the snap in the middle of the strap so that it maintains a fairly rigid pinky loop for fast retrieval out of a pocket.
    I carry it either in my left front or rear pocket.

    Attachment 42079

    Attachment 42080
    Last edited by JodyH; 09-02-2019 at 05:40 PM.
    Lot of desert out here.
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    Lot of problems buried in those holes.

  3. #33
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
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    Here's the "pinky loop" of my Foster #31 sticking up out of the "cell phone" pocket on my Kuhl shorts.
    Perfect position for retrieval and fairly low profile.
    Saps are rare enough these days that the leather loop sticking up doesn't stand out as being anything concerning.
    Not as obviously potentially dangerous as a knife clip.

    Attachment 42086
    Lot of desert out here.
    Lot of holes in the desert.
    Lot of problems buried in those holes.

  4. #34
    Ideas Are Bulletproof RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    If you train live with a sap go extremely light on your strikes, even if your partner is fully padded up. Sap strikes, especially stabs are no joke.
    Jody, make sure you look at the Greenman Leather link Cecil posted earlier. Greenman has a "flat sap training tool" which is just a thin piece of steel (not particularly heavy) wrapped in 4-ply leather. Gives shape and stiffness like a sap, but without the weight. Still want a partner that is padded, but you can work a little more "vigorously" with that tool.

    Like Cecil suggests, I use small arc shots with the sap. And like Jody the liver shot is one of my go-to shots. I like Bas Rutten's mid-level wind-up and you can go high or low, depending on what your opponent gives you. Following Bas's ideas on getting someone to raise their defense is great for opening up a mean liver shot.

    Also, I love the Bolo punch with a sap or jack. A Bolo for those who don't know is sort of like a mix of a hook and uppercut, and thrown with a short arc at the face/chin thrown from about the 3:30-4 o'clock position from an Orthodox stance (lefty is just a 8:30-9 o'clock position).

    The overcut is also a good one with a sap or jack but you want to be careful due to the potential of hitting a lot of exposed skull if you're taller fighting someone shorter. If you're fighting an opponent who is around 6"+ taller than you the overcut is nice because it tends to be an arcing blow using the shoulder and hip rotation that lands around the side of the face/jaw of an opponent. With a jack or sap even a partially landed overcut has the potential to end the fight.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    Saps are rare enough these days that the leather loop sticking up doesn't stand out as being anything concerning. Not as obviously potentially dangerous as a knife clip.
    In fact, in my experience, most people donít know what a sap is at all. Iíve even pulled mine out to show people and they had no idea what it was.



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  6. #36
    What about blackjacks (the rounded ones) and how do they compare to saps?

  7. #37
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed L View Post
    What about blackjacks (the rounded ones) and how do they compare to saps?
    Bone breakers.

    I prefer a sap because with training you have more flexibility in how much force is applied.
    Sap force can be moderated more easily than Blackjacks can because you have three different amounts of surface area to work with (face, edge, point).
    But with more options comes a higher commitment to training and practice in picking and applying the right option.

    But if you want something you can just whip out and break a forearm or center punch a sternum with very little thought required a Blackjack is your friend, and that has it's advantages as well.
    Lot of desert out here.
    Lot of holes in the desert.
    Lot of problems buried in those holes.

  8. #38
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    blackjacks and saps

    I started as a cop in 1981. At that time lot of the older guys around here still carried saps or blackjacks in the sap pocket of their uniform pants and did so until about '84 or '85 when such weapons were specifically prohibited by policy. Most of the guys used them as a backup impact weapon, in case they bailed out of the car in a hurry and forgot their straight baton. (That was right about the time the ASP expanding baton was introduced)

    I bought a Bucheimer "Convoy" blackjack and another model with a lighter weight (Maybe a Bucheimer #7980?)

    One of my older mentors who worked for the Sheriff's Office told me to use the lighter one. I carried it as a backup until policy changed.(This same guy had been in a battle with a drunk sometime in the late 70s and ended up hitting the guy along side the head with the edge of a flat sap (by accident) and just about tore the suspect's ear off. No lasting repercussions from that, but he immediately switched to carrying a lighter weight round blackjack with the spring as a result. I saw him break a guy's collar bone with it in the parking lot of a road house one night when we went to a fight at bartime. That fellaí quit fighting immediately . . . )

    I traded another old timer a black GI wool sweater for his sap gloves. Only used them once, breaking up a fight in a parking lot outside a bar. A strong punch to the sternum stopped a guy who wanted to fight me dead in his tracks.(Which was good, because I'm a big boy and he was about the same size and a lot more muscular (and certainly meaner) and I think I would've been in trouble if he'd have gotten his hands on me or landed a few punches)

    I've carried a 26 inch ASP expanding baton for years and only had to use it twice, both times trying to break up a fight in the parking lot of a bar at 0200. Both times the individual stopped advancing after I hit them on the outside of the thigh. They were NOT incapacitated.

  9. #39
    A good resource for information on small impact weapons is Robert Escobar. He runs a youtube page called object history where he goes into a lot of detail about the history and context of saps, blackjacks, and slungshots, and has also published his research into a book.

    https://www.amazon.com/Saps-Blackjac...1410807&sr=8-1

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...XGIb_82R3zFfCU

    For myself, although I have a boston leather 4 ply midget, I am quite happy with the mean gene hot tamale I carry for my EDC. Although it's true the design limits your options of strikes, you can still get a decent edge strike by choking up on the handle. As for the issue with the mass, I solved that by dropping in a couple of my challenge coins. I've gotten over two rolls of quarters in their in the past, so I'm quite satisfied with the capacity. I've also gotten it past a number of checkpoints, in the case of more stringent searches, I've gotten it past by putting the change in a ziplock and using the tamale to carry a small item, such as an ipod nano, or hand sanitizer.

    I would like to get a custom midget sized sap, preferably with an IWB clip. Some possible contenders include the Fatty and coffin sap from D3 protection, and the Lil Bam Bam from Green Man Leather

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