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Thread: Smaller Saps?

  1. #21
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    I think that most police departments have banned use of saps. Hitting someone on the head with a larger one would be risky. Further, saps may project a negative image to police when used by a civilian in a fistfight. If so, the sap might affect how the officer wrote his report especially if the other guy had split lips, broken nose, and other trauma. For me these are essential considerations. Walking away from a fight with an idiot might be a better choice.

  2. #22
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willie View Post
    Walking away from a fight with an idiot might be a better choice.
    I don't think it might be a better choice, it is the better choice. If one can walk away from a fight it is absolutely the better choice. I suppose I started from the ASSumption that one was in a position where they would be justified in using force.

    Saps aren't for picking bar fights. At least not when used for lawful defensive purposes. There are merely a blunt force multiplier. If you are justified in using approximately the same level of force you would with a fist, then you should be justified in the use of a sap - as long as the sap is legal to have (obvious caveat, IANAL, seek and retain competent legal council, know your state laws, etc).

    A sap is meant to bridge the gap between OC spray and lethal force tools, by providing you with a less-lethal (when used properly) force item that is quite effective.

    Many police departments banned saps and jacks, due to inappropriate use by officers in the past and/or due to a dim public political view. 60 years ago, a sap or jack in a policeman's pocket was common, 30-years ago, it was far less common, today even less so. In between, the nature of use of force and types of force that can be used has changed significantly. A "pie from the sky" hit with a flat sap to the head can cause a skull fracture and death a jack even more so. This is why Cecil was quick to point out that one should invest some time in jack and sap training and learning how to use and the limits of the tools.

    FWIW, if you talk to an officer who can carry a sap or jack two things will become apparent. 1) They tend to prefer flat saps like a Midget or Bucheimer. 2) They universally prefer saps to any other impact tool commonly used, to include the PR24 (which isn't even commonly in use). Some prefer them significantly to other less lethal tools like Tasers. Guys who have gotten into fights with them like them, because they work. Just like guys who have used shotguns to conduct 'social work' like them because they work.

  3. #23
    Correction, my Boston Leather is a Junior, midget is now inbound.

    How are you using the smaller Sap’s? Seems they need to be focused on the jawline, under the chin, behind the ear. You still using them on limbs?
    Last edited by Oukaapie; 08-28-2019 at 11:31 PM.

  4. #24
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    If you are justified in using approximately the same level of force you would with a fist, then you should be justified in the use of a sap - as long as the sap is legal to have
    I would be extremely cautious with that assumption and be prepared to explain disparity of force that lead you to use a "force multiplier". Prosecutors discretion often overlooks fist fighting where fights with implements are more closely scrutinized.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  5. #25
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    I would be extremely cautious with that assumption and be prepared to explain disparity of force that lead you to use a "force multiplier". Prosecutors discretion often overlooks fist fighting where fights with implements are more closely scrutinized.
    Concur. I would not ASSume this is always (or perhaps ever) the case - I wrote the above in such a way to couch it that this was not a given, but hesitated in the way to word it.

    So let me amend my not legal advice - you should deploy a sap or jack in instances where you feel confident that such a level of force is justified. How and when that is, is up to you, but seek competent training, legal advice and retain council for your own safety. While the average civilian is not bound by use of force policy, review of how and when your local constabulary deploys OC/less-lethal impact tools/lethal force can give you an idea of appropriate force use in your circumstances.

  6. #26
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oukaapie View Post
    Correction, my Boston Leather is a Junior, midget is now inbound.

    How are you using the smaller Sap’s? Seems they need to be focused on the jawline, under the chin, behind the ear. You still using them on limbs?
    Yes, yes, yes, and yes.

    I could be wrong in how I think of it so lets page @Cecil Burch and @SouthNarc to come give us correct thoughts -

    When deploying the sap I think about targeting and which way to use it like I would punches or kicks:

    If I would jab or cross, I will jab or cross with the tip or edge of the sap.

    Uppercuts use the edge/tip of the sap.

    Anywhere you might throw a hook you can either rotate the fist over and use the tip/edge of the sap, or you can use the flat by not rotating the fist.

    If I were going to throw a leg kick to the thigh or calf? Flat side of the sap using a hook or backhand.

    Liver/kidney shots can be done with the tip or flat.

    Clinched up usually you'll strike with the edge, because you have less leverage.

    It was Craig who turned me onto Bas Ruten's liver shot - Watch Bas here and think - what if he had a sap and used the edge or flat here? It doesn't necessarily matter, it would just add 8 ounces of uncrushable lead to his shots. It also lets you think, "Okay, I don't have to load up and swing from as far away to deliver the same power with a jack or sap in my hand as I would a punch."

    Last edited by RevolverRob; 08-29-2019 at 12:45 PM.

  7. #27
    Site Supporter Maple Syrup Actual's Avatar
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    I have a Foster Midget that I use as a fish bonker.

    Works amazing. The skulls on decent sized ling cod are flattened.

    I had my dad out fishing one time a couple of years ago and he thought the sap was a joke and clubbed his fish with a wooden bonker and forty years of experience.

    I used the sap. I put almost no effort in to the hit. Wasn't my fish that kept waking up over the next ten minutes. Wasn't my fish that needed four sessions of encouragement to stop flailing around in the well. I have continued to use the sap.

  8. #28
    I generally don't like straight line shots with saps. It is difficult to keep a good enough grip on one while doing so that allows you to a) hit with power and b) maintain the hold on the sap.

    Most of my strikes are gong to be tight arcs (think of Bas' body shot mechanics) aimed at the collar bone, jawline, shoulder, and head. Secondary targets are the limbs and ribs, and soft body targets like the liver or kidneys. While I certainly think they can be useful to damage, they tend to be far more difficult to actually contact because the other guy is most likely using them to fight back and they are moving rapidly and in different directions/angles.

    Training with saps to build power is fairly easy, and where the standard heavy bag shines. because the most effective and easily landed shots are those arcs, the heavy bag lets you really dial in those mechanics. I would encourage people to hit the bag with straight shots too, but pay attention to whether you are hitting with maximum energy and whether you are maintaining the solid and same grip on it while doing so.
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  9. #29
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    Mean Gene Leather makes a "coin purse" that would be nice if you carry a lot of quarters(a roll of quarters weighs 8 ounces). There are a few other companies that make "coin purses" if you do some googling.
    My mom has a "Small Snap Coin Sac" she keeps a roll of quarters in.
    --Jason--

  10. #30
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    Mean Gene Leather makes a "coin purse" that would be nice if you carry a lot of quarters(a roll of quarters weighs 8 ounces). There are a few other companies that make "coin purses" if you do some googling.
    My mom has a "Small Snap Coin Sac" she keeps a roll of quarters in.
    The trouble with the various coin saps out there is they lack the stiffness necessary to actually function well without taking an overhead or looping hook shot and using the whipping motion of those shots to help deliver the blow. In other words, they need distance and wind-up to function at their best.

    Most of them end up like semi-floppy slung-shots as opposed to saps. The 'Hot Tamale' is a perfect example of this. For sure you don't want to get smashed with 8-ounces of quarters swung over hand or with a hook, but it's a compromise tool compared to a proper sap or jack. Ostensibly it's something that you can carry legally as a "coin purse". But I wouldn't want to be a test case in most instances in most jurisdictions. The best function for them, in my opinion, is travel to a foreign country.

    The Greenman Coin Sacs at least have the advantage of looking like something other than a modified sap.

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