Page 6 of 9 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 90

Thread: Appendix Carry Fundamentals

  1. #51
    LE Forum Moderator BehindBlueI's's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Midwest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Cunningham View Post
    Good points, but do we just maybe buy an opposite side holster in that case?

    If my right arm was in a cast Iíd carry on my left side.
    Sure, but you're still WHO regardless of what side and what position your gun is at. I hadn't thought that far ahead the first time and ended up cavalry draw until I could procure a lefty holster.
    L'otters are not afraid.
    WWOMJD?

    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Maybe with talented students I would lube up with baby oil and then go at it.

  2. #52
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Todd (r.i.p) used to always talk about defining terms so that knowledgeable people donít accidentally talk past each other.

    Hereís my frame of reference:

    Unless a person is truly ambidextrous, they have a strong hand and a weak hand (NLP enthusiasts notwithstanding). Their strong hand is their firing hand and their weak hand is their support hand - under normal circumstances.

    If a person switches to WHO itís still their weak hand, but now itís their firing hand. Their strong hand is their support hand if available.

    So strong and weak hands always stay the same, firing and support hands can change.

    I am a firm believer in ambidextrous gun handling. Super Dave has an ďIron CrossĒ Drill that is great for this.

    SHO shooting is extremely common in real shooting situations and should be mastered. WHO occurs very rarely, but there should be a pre-programmed success path on the neural network.

    I teach a class called Murphy Strikes! which covers this stuff pretty well.

    My response to the post above asking about AIWB WHO holstering was predicated on holstering a gun on the strong side with the weak hand. I do think weak hand skills are important. Carrying a gun on my left side due to a right arm injury is in fact weak hand shooting for me, but not holstering cross body.
    Last edited by Jay Cunningham; 08-25-2019 at 12:41 PM.
    How to Successfully Host a Firearms Training Class
    Dry Practice Misconceptions
    my screen name from back in the day was The_Katar
    former M4C mod and staff, former PF staff, former VSM instructor, current nobody

  3. #53
    LE Forum Moderator BehindBlueI's's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Midwest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Cunningham View Post
    Unless a person is truly ambidextrous, they have a strong hand and a weak hand (NLP enthusiasts notwithstanding). Their strong hand is their firing hand and their weak hand is their support hand - under normal circumstances.

    If a person switches to WHO itís still their weak hand, but now itís their firing hand. Their strong hand is their support hand if available.
    Yeah, we're on the same page. Just out of curiosity, if you were to become a one-armed bandit temporarily would you go appendix or weak side? I'm a 3:30 carrier normally so I just mirrored. I've heard appendix advocates list that the gun is easier to access with your off hand, which I think is valid. Sure, you have to cavalry draw, but (especially depending on build) then to reach behind yourself for a strong side carry.
    L'otters are not afraid.
    WWOMJD?

    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Maybe with talented students I would lube up with baby oil and then go at it.

  4. #54
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Yeah, we're on the same page. Just out of curiosity, if you were to become a one-armed bandit temporarily would you go appendix or weak side? I'm a 3:30 carrier normally so I just mirrored. I've heard appendix advocates list that the gun is easier to access with your off hand, which I think is valid. Sure, you have to cavalry draw, but (especially depending on build) then to reach behind yourself for a strong side carry.
    If my right arm was out of commission, I'd likely carry at my 8:30. While I know how to draw one-handed AIWB (precisely as Spencer K. described earlier in the thread) it's still IMO more of a pain in the ass than a conventional concealed draw from open front concealment. I'm already at a disadvantage in that case so no time for me to try and be clever.
    How to Successfully Host a Firearms Training Class
    Dry Practice Misconceptions
    my screen name from back in the day was The_Katar
    former M4C mod and staff, former PF staff, former VSM instructor, current nobody

  5. #55
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Gaming In The Streets
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Cunningham View Post
    I've performed many, many SHO draws and even WHO draws, but I've never holstered my firearm WHO. I just can't justify doing it. Use a Blue Gun if you want to do it.
    I just wanted to add my agreement to this post.
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
    Lord of the Food Court
    http://www.gabewhitetraining.com

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Mike is a great instructor, but carrying a Wilson 1911 isnít the answer. If someone canít safely holster a Glock, they should strongly consider more training.
    Quote Originally Posted by wvincent View Post
    We could parse this thread down to just the above quote. Most excellent answer.
    AIWB, and gun saftery in general is a software issue.
    Safeties, SCD's and such are just hardware backups to software failures.

    Kind of how most AD's, when cut down to the bone of it, are usually an ND, due to not following the simple rules.

    As a trained safety professional/mishap investigator, I strongly disagree with the sentiment of these statements. They are very poor advice if someone is trying to realistically assess the risk levels of a carrying/holstering a stock striker fired pistol like a Glock or HK VP9 vs a TDA or SAO hammer fired gun with manual safety.

    Handguns with manual safeties, SCDs, hammers, etc. are ABSOLUTELY SAFER for AIWB carry than a stock striker fired pistol like a Glock or HK VP9.

    This does not mean a stock Glock cannot be safely carried AIWB, but there is definitely increased risk involved. A Glock or VP9 is essentially a single point failure system in regards to safety when re-holstering. If you leave your finger on the trigger or something gets caught in the trigger guard while re-holstering, a ND will occur. There are lots of documented cases of NDs happening to LEOs under these exact circumstances. A large percentage of these NDs would likely not have occurred if these same LEOs were equipped with hammer fired pistols with manual safeties and corresponding holstering procedures.

    Pistols with manual safeties, SCDs, hammers, etc. and corresponding safe holstering procedures ARE safer for re-holstering because they provide multiple and overlapping safety features that must all fail for an ND to occur. When re-holstering an HK P30LS carried cocked and locked I keep my finger off the trigger, engage the manual safety, and firmly press my thumb between the hammer and firing pin. These three steps all provide overlapping safety for re-holstering. If I forget to take my finger off the trigger or something gets into the trigger guard when re-holster, both the manual safety and thumb between the hammer/firing pin would defeat this error, and an ND would not occur (whereas there would be a loud BOOM with a stock Glock).

    The P30LS carried in this fashion is safer than a stock Glock because the probability is less that all three safety features will fail for an AD/ND to occur, whereas only one safety feature must fail on a stock Glock.
    Last edited by Hunter Rose; 08-31-2019 at 09:13 AM.

  7. #57
    Site Supporter Clusterfrack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Redneck wonderland
    @Hunter Rose, I understand where youíre coming from. I wasnít arguing that everyone should AIWB a Glock. Iím carrying a P07 right now.

    However, every AIWB carrier should be able to holster any gun safely. If theyíre relying on a manual safety, thatís not good enough IMO. Safeties get forgotten, bad habits get built.
    "BJJ is sort of like nonconsensual yoga"
    "You donít really graduate from certain problems or certain thingsÖ like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  8. #58
    Straightforward topic that needed little addition beyond the OP has turned into a sea of minutia.


    Not shooting your junk off is pretty basic all things considered.


    Panone doesnít cover the hammer when he holsters. Langdon does.

    Clint Smith will lightly mock you for AIWB, Gabe saures will call you fat if you donít aiwb


    Whoís right ? Who cares. None of us are going to totally change our method based on any of it or the terms associated.

    Like a discussion about how to piss on the ground

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    @Hunter Rose

    However, every AIWB carrier should be able to holster any gun safely. If theyíre relying on a manual safety, thatís not good enough IMO. Safeties get forgotten, bad habits get built.
    My retort to your example above would be: "Keeping fingers off triggers gets forgotten, bad habits get built."

    Academically speaking, the poorly trained individual with bad habits you cite above is just as safe solely relying on the manual safety as the same poorly trained person solely relying on keeping their finger off the trigger during re-holstering. Both are single point of failure systems that are safe as long as they are ALWAYS performed correctly.

    But that misses the point. The safety benefits of manual safeties and positively controlling a hammer are not meant to replace sound holstering techniques, but rather to add additional layers of safety that can prevent an ND when sound holstering techniques fail.

    Using the cocked and locked P30LS example, it has three layers of overlapping safety features to prevent an ND:

    1) sound holstering technique that ensures finger is off the trigger, no obstructions/debris are in the holster, etc.in case #2 and #3 fail
    2) engaging manual safety to prevent the gun from firing if #1 and #3 fail
    3) thumb between hammer and firing pin to prevent the gun from firing if #1 and #2 fail

    The stock Glock only has #1 to prevent an ND. Step #1 must be performed correctly EVERY SINGLE TIME. It is a less safe system for AIWB carry where a ND is likely catastrophic and can cause death.

    Again, this is not to say a stock Glock or VP9 cannot be carried safely AIWB, but people need to be realistic and acknowledge that making this choice comes with greatly increased risk of a catastrophic ND that could result in death.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
    Straightforward topic that needed little addition beyond the OP has turned into a sea of minutia.

    Not shooting your junk off is pretty basic all things considered.
    Sure, but there are pistols that make it less likely you'll shoot your junk off.

    Also, I thought the whole purpose of Pistol-Forum was to discuss the minutiae of all things shooting?
    Last edited by Hunter Rose; 08-31-2019 at 12:56 PM.

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •