What "Elite" Units/Organizations Currently Use a Single Stack 1911 .45

[rsa-otc]

I had read Haney's book as well. I thought It dovetailed nicely with Charlie Beckwith's book I read back in the 80's. So I am suprised as well.

[TGS]

I'm watching "Cowboys and Aliens" and wanted to look up a history question about the US Marshals real quick.

Thought I would add that Wikipedia states the US Marshals SOG teams as using Springfield TRP 1911's. Not sure if they meet the "elite" standard or not, but thought I'd add it to the conversation.

[HoffACDC]

They piggie backed on the FBI Springfield Pro contract. DEA did, as well, for about 20 min, to the chagrin of the DEA 1911 guys. But then again, they get a bigger list than most Fed agencies for POWs, so...

According to a current team member, the FBI SWAT guys have gone from the P220, then the Glock, Springfield Professional, Glock, refurbed Railed Professionals/Operators with ramped barrels, Glocks. Some teams are strictly 1911, some are strictly Glock - 22s or 21s. Many are mixed.

I did the Glock / 1911 / Glock thing over the last four years. Picking up a 1911 makes those tricky shots seem so much easier. You put up with the weight, the maintenance, the capacity, the trips back to the armorer, the replacing springs, magazines, etc., because on a 25yd quality course you are making neat holes wherever you want them. Then one day you pick up your old Glock. 25yds takes a little while, but then you get the hang of it. You realize you aren't reloading as much. The gun works better, with less TLC, lube, magazine maintenance. It certainly is lighter to carry. You don't baby it - when you are doing Sniper duties the gun comes with you, not tucked away in the safe because it might get scratched, or dirty, or dusty. You don't mind a high round count day because the gun doesn't need to be cleaned RIGHT NOW, and your elbow doesn't hurt as much. You carry one or two spares and double your on board payload. You don't mind keeping your X300 on it because you still save weight. Your polos / suit coats aren't worn through from sharp checkering and hammers and safeties. You don't mind the Kydex holster that wears the finish but is so much faster.

This was at least my journey.

I use Glock because that is what I know, but insert your favorite plastic blaster and the analogy works the same.

[Ed L]

Even if it was only 200 guys (it's bigger than that), 1M per year works out to just 5,000 rounds per shooter. While that's certainly a lot more than most teams, it's far less than the average serious shooters will go through. That's not a slam on the unit, just another example of how low pistol training is, by necessity, on their list of priorities.

I can't remember the exact number Larry Vickers has quoted in classes I have taken from him, but it if I remember correctly the number was more like 400-500 rounds per shooter per day when they were ramping up with their handguns.

[secondstoryguy]

I did the Glock / 1911 / Glock thing over the last four years. Picking up a 1911 makes those tricky shots seem so much easier. You put up with the weight, the maintenance, the capacity, the trips back to the armorer, the replacing springs, magazines, etc., because on a 25yd quality course you are making neat holes wherever you want them. Then one day you pick up your old Glock. 25yds takes a little while, but then you get the hang of it. You realize you aren't reloading as much. The gun works better, with less TLC, lube, magazine maintenance. It certainly is lighter to carry. You don't baby it - when you are doing Sniper duties the gun comes with you, not tucked away in the safe because it might get scratched, or dirty, or dusty. You don't mind a high round count day because the gun doesn't need to be cleaned RIGHT NOW, and your elbow doesn't hurt as much. You carry one or two spares and double your on board payload. You don't mind keeping your X300 on it because you still save weight. Your polos / suit coats aren't worn through from sharp checkering and hammers and safeties. You don't mind the Kydex holster that wears the finish but is so much faster.

As someone who's carried both on duty this is exactly my experience. One thing I can say for the ole' 1911 is that if you end up going fisticuffs with someone they make an excellent bludgeon.

[Steven C.]

Delta members in Afghanistan, circa 2002. Can you make out what they have in the holsters? Photo appears in "The Men, The Mission and Me" by Pete Blaber (on right). It is a great book and I am re-reading it. I seem to recall him writing in the book about sleeping with a Glock under his pillow while in Kosovo in the 90s.

[IMG][/IMG]

[TCinVA]

This stuff needs to be stickied. One of the best explanations I have ever read for both why someone might still reasonably choose to shoot 1911's, and why they really probably shouldn't.

Question for you, TCinVA - roughly how much practice did it take with the new gun before you caught up to your performance with the Les Baer?

I took everything back to zero and started "from scratch" relearning the fundamentals...but with good fundamentals instruction and some disciplined dryfire it was only 3 or 4 months until I was shooting better with the Plastic Appliance Pistols than I was with my pet 1911. I still love my 1911 and if I had to sell guns it would be one of the last to go. I think I'd sell my Colt 6920 first. It would be one of the last to go because I realize at this point that I'd never spend that kind of rude money on a 1911 again unless I hit the power ball or something. I mean, I bought 2 P30's and a bunch of magazines for less money than I paid for my Baer many moons ago.

If I do hit the powerball it won't be hard to tell because the top 1911 smiths will suddenly have wait times that jump two years.

[SteveK]

Most of these organizations adopted the 1911 while they were plentiful in inventory and pistolsmithiing was in it's prime. Armond Swenson, Frank Pachmayr and others were doing amazing things that really made the 1911 an elite pistol. Fast forward 20 years to a skinny Austrian dude looking to fulfill his country's needs and everything kinda changes after that. Wonderful as a custom 1911 is, put 50,000 rounds through it and you're probably going to need some form of maintenance. A Glock (or reasonable facsimile thereof) costs at the most 1/3 of the 1911 and requires no maitenance. If it does it is usaully a cheap, drop in solution. Forward thinking individuals realize that the 1911 platform just isn't the best solution. It took me awhile, but the concept finally sank in.

[SecondsCount]

.... A Glock (or reasonable facsimile thereof) costs at the most 1/3 of the 1911 and requires no maitenance. If it does it is usaully a cheap, drop in solution. Forward thinking individuals realize that the 1911 platform just isn't the best solution. It took me awhile, but the concept finally sank in.

While the requirement is much less than a 1911, a Glock still requires maintenance.

[Chemsoldier]

Getting back on track.

My best SWAG based on this thread and other open sources.

Unit, 1911 user

SFOD-D, depends
SEAL DEVGRU, No
SEAL and boat crews, No
MARSOC, Yes
AF SOF, No
USA SF, No
USA 75th RGR, No
CIA Para and Operations, Depends
UK and Commonwealth SAS, No
Canadian JTF2, No
Other NATO SOF, No

FBI HRT, Yes
NYPD Emergency Svc, No
LAPD SWAT, ?

Any additions/corrections?

From video and still pics-

Australian Defense Force Tactical Assault Groups East and West: No
Australian Federal Police Specialist Response Group: No
LAPD SIS: Some

My own observation: Seen members of about three different Kansas county and regional teams train. No 1911s.

I dont know a lot about tactics (I just shoot at targets on a range) but I had a guy who used to be on a special team (Law enforcement) tell me that he would be concerned about the 1911 as a sidearm when taking down what he called "linear targets." The way he explained it was that if you were taking down a train or airliner and you were the #1 man going down an aisle and your long arm went dry or malfunctioned you would have to transition to your handgun and that handgun would have to go for the rest of the distance of the aisle even if it was a long distance, you cant stop. He was concerned with the single column magazine and its capacity. Basically you have to keep moving. With all your gear, you cant pass the #2 man to the front reliably, you cant stop to get your primary back up, you must keep pace with the #1 man on the stack going up the other aisle (if a wide body airliner), if you have to reload your pistol than you must but it is stupid dangerous to be walking up an aisle while changing mags.