Guns for Weak People: Observations

[Doc_Glock]

I recently took a friend’s daughter out to familiarize her with guns. No prior experience except shooting her brother’s Gen 3 G19 which apparently malfunctioned all the time when she shot it.

We did some dry work on safety before going out, then I tried her on a variety of guns. She is a very slight, skinny, and weak individual, and it was interesting for me to see how a relatively weak human interacts with various guns.

In the dry work, she had difficulty running the slide on most semi autos, but did much better with full sized guns. Forget the G42 or G43. Administrative handling of revolvers was no issue, but the heavy trigger pull was a problem. I would say for pistols, dry, the 92D was the one I would probably set her up with.

In the field: I had her start with the M&P .22 AR clone with red dot to get some confidence. She was ringing steel at 15 paces no problem almost instantly. Learned the load, unload process and running the safety quickly.

Then the Beretta M9-22 conversion. This was good for learning how to use sights, but the safety decocker and two different trigger pulls all added up to overwhelming a new shooter. I had her load the gun, but essentially, I ran the controls and put her in SA all the time. This was just to get her unafraid of the explosion and to learn how to align sights and squeeze trigger which the B92-22 is great for, being so heavy. Many malfunctions which I attribute to standard velocity .22 and a very limp wrist.

Moved to the LCR .22. That was a total fail. The 12lb trigger was overwhelming and she could barely pull it, did so with great difficulty and a lot of shake. Two rounds and we quit.

Glock 42: again total fail. I had to load for her. Two rounds and both failed to feed due to limp wrist. This surprised me as I always think the G42 is a great gun for the weaker, recoil sensitive shooter. Nope.

G19X, just to get a feel of a full sized/power service pistol: she loved it and was able to run it. Zero malfunctions! Check out her limp wrist:



The G19X totally impressed me. This gun has around 2k rounds on it without lube. I never thought it would cycle for her.

I then had her shoot a mag from an 11.5” AR and she handled that gun just fine. Loud but nothing to fear.

Lessons learned:

-Small people should stick to rifles.

-The industry has has failed to make a: lightweight, reliable, easy to shoot, load, and unload small caliber gun for the strength challenged folks who most need a gun honestly. This sucks. Maybe the S&W Shield EZ is that gun? There is a real need for more like that. Let me know your thoughts? The Beretta Bobcat is almost that fun but it is totally unreliable and has a safety plus DA/SA system that is completely bizarre to a non dedicated shooter. Are there any revolvers that meet this criteria with a trigger under 8lbs?

-The AR/Full sized Glock combination is hard to beat with a little training and can serve a very wide variety of folks.

[P30]

Let me know your thoughts?

As far as pistols:

CZ75.
1911 in 9 mm with steel frame.

Both have a relatively heavy frame which absorbs much of the recoil and makes them cycle even with limb wrists.

PS:
Limb wristing tests with pistols which have different frame weights (e.g. Glock malfunctions, CZ75 does not):

[JTQ]

I follow these "guns for the weak/small" threads pretty regularly, since I'm a short guy at 5'6", who wears a men's size small glove, and my wife and daughters are all 5' even, and since I'm now over 60 and showing the beginning signs of arthritis, I pay attention to these threads.

The head scratcher I always have in these threads is folks putting small guns in the hands of smaller/weaker people. I get it, if you want to find a gun to conceal, but if you're just going to shoot it either at the range or in a home defense role, I find a full size/duty size gun a whole lot easier to work than a little gun like a G42/G43, J-Frame, or other small gun that folks like to give to folks with small hands.

Most big folks or folks with large hands seem to think that since folks with small hands can get most of their fingers on a short grip that's the way to go. The issue with small hands, and often weak hands, is trigger reach. A G17/G19X/G19/G26 all have the same trigger reach, but generally it's a whole lot easier to shoot the full size version of those guns.

The "get the J-Frame" also always intrigues me too. I'd much rather use my big upper body muscles to rack the slide of a semi-auto to get a 5 lb trigger pull for each shot (and often 15+ of those shots) than have to use the small muscles in my trigger finger, that may be arthritis affected, to pull a 12 lb trigger on a double action revolver for as few as five shots before I have to reload.

I pay pretty close attention to my right hand thumb and the ability I have to sweep the thumb safety off on a 1911. As long as I can do that, the light weight single action trigger and short trigger reach, on a full size 1911 is an advantage to me. If my thumb starts to lose mobility, and it is currently better off than my trigger finger, I may have to switch to something else, but so far so good.

[Totem Polar]

The shield EZ is a game-changer for impaired hands. One is now my dad’s EDC.

I’ll also observe that the new Colt King Cobra has a very easy trigger, by revolver standards. That gun, with wadcutters, may be my own ‘old man gun’ someday down the road.

FWIW.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I was impressed with my mom's Browning 1911-380.

[beenalongtime]

Have a friend who teaches a local CCW class, that thinks the EZ 380 could/would be a gun for those with a lot of strength issues. He had been wanting to get one for his classes, but had some medical issues the last year, so he was just hesitant on pulling the money trigger. (making sure he was good to go, back to work)
I bought one for him and he let me handle it, and it did make the .22 version I bought to train my niece, seem hard to operate (and it isn't). If it weren't for the ammo price difference, I would prefer the EZ 380 as the trainer.

That said, medical conditions can change and people can build up grip and body strength, so I wouldn't expect what she likes now, to always be her choice, but in part that is why some of us always try other guns. Finding out what works for us. Let her get more range time and even that may help her strength.

[VT1032]

I then had her shoot a mag from an 11.5” AR and she handled that gun just fine. Loud but nothing to fear.

This is one of my standard responses to the "why would anyone need an AR15?" question. My wife is similarly small and physically weak. She makes a G19 look like a .44 mag despite efforts at training. She can run a .22 pistol marginally well but that's about the limit. She runs an AR like a champ. More importantly, she's comfortable and confident with it. It can be fit to her and she can reliably use it in an emergency.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Malamute]

I dont recall exact trigger pull weight numbers, but K frame Smiths can be set up with a lighter yet reliable DA trigger pull than a J frame.

One gun that stays in my mind for this situation is the Ruger Standard 22 auto pistol, the Luger-esque looking one, not the smaller, more modern 22 theyve made (SR-22?). The Standard doesnt require much force to operate the slide, and there are slide racker attachments available to help if needed, to pull by hand or hook on a door frame or whatever if one cant grasp the slide ears adequately. They are very reliable, and I dont believe are sensitive to limp wristing.

[41magfan]

I figured out a long time ago that a Ruger Compact 10/22 with a 25 rd magazine will work for a lot of people for a lot of reasons, both young and old. It's not a portable option obviously, but I've found that most of these folks aren't going to carry a gun in public anyway, regardless of their initial intentions.

[Bergeron]

It's been educational when I've had a chance to work with weaker people.

A good friend's wife could only just barely work the slide of Glock 19, and she's tall and athletic, but without as much arm or grip strength as I would have though.

@Doc_Glock, I got myself a 92D Centurion with a NP3 TJIAB not only to give myself DAO practice, but to serve as a loaner gun.

I'd like to get hands-on with a M&P 380EZ, just to see. I keep hearing how easy it is.

Maybe mid-size locked-breech 380s are the solution to this issue?