Guns for Weak People: Observations

[Redhat]

I’ll add another thought regarding the CZ 75 lineup. The internal frame to slide rail configuration gives less room to grasp for slide racking, making that function more challenging versus more traditional railed guns.

I hear this frequently, but do you have any idea how much less surface area the CZ 75 has than some of the other popular pistols? Compared to say a G19, 92FS, SIG, HK, M&P.

I'll also add, learning to do things usually requires a level of commitment, especially if they aren't easy. Without that, I don't know how successful you can expect to be.

[scjbash]

I'm gonna disagree a little with you. In our/her experience the M&P 9 was a total no-go. The trigger reach and grip circumference were not ideal for a small hand.

Did you have the small backstrap on? I ask because that's the opposite of my experience. The M&P with a small backstrap makes for a pretty small grip circumference and short trigger reach, and I've seen it work really well for a lot of women with small hands.

[Bucky]

I hear this frequently, but do you have any idea how much less surface area the CZ 75 has than some of the other popular pistols? Compared to say a G19, 92FS, SIG, HK, M&P.

I’ve been shooting a CZ Shadow 2 in USPSA Production competition for the past two years. Previously, I shot Glock for about 5, Berettas for about 7, did a year with the HK P30, and dabbled with the VP9 and M&P. Also, shot 1911s / 2011s in non-production divisions for the past 27 years. I’ve not had an issue adapting, but I can see where it can be more challenging to someone with limited strength.

[txdpd]

The interesting part is that she's not who I would consider a weak female. When we worked EMS together, I never had concerns about lifting people when I was paired with her on truck, whereas that was a concern when partnered with most women. Her hand strength is sufficient that she can competently shoot double action a-ok, no problems......yet she can barely lock the slide open on that P250 .380.

Kinesiology/ergonomics are weird.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17186303/

Not surprising. In testing grip strength 90% of females produced less force than 95% of males.

Couple other things. Don’t “rack” the slides on pistols, anchor the hand holding the pistol against the chest, and drive the hand holding the grip forward. If you have front serrations, griping the front of the slide and torquing the thumb into the rear serrations can generate a lot of force. Crappy video attached.

[AKDoug]

If shooting for fun is the goal, then look no further than a Ruger Mark IV .22/45. They are incredibly easy to manipulate, can be had in light weight versions, and in a self defense instance it's better than nothing.

[BillSWPA]

When I taught NRA Basic Pistol, I ended up working with a disproportionate number of elderly ladies and others with hand or wrist issues. While different issues require different solutions, some consistent patterns exist. Trigger pulls should be kept well below 9 lb., and the ease of retracting the slide is important.

Semiautos with light triggers generally work best. My wife, who does not have particularly good hand strength and who is recoil sensitive, does best with a Springfield XD9. While I know some will question that choice, it is the result of trying her out on MANY guns. I hope to try her out on a S&W EZ at some point.

Two ladies with wrist problems have told me that the recoil of a semiauto is no good for them, but revolver recoil is okay. One of them shoots DA revolvers with both index fingers on the trigger. Sometimes nonstandard solutions work.

Kel-Tec P-32 is a really good choice if a tiny gun is desired, as long as the 9 lb. recoil springs are replaced with 11 lb. springs. Crimson Trace LaserGuards are a big help.

I worry less about minimum calibers than I do about their having a gun that they can shoot well and that they will actually carry.



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[Duelist]

My wife is just under 5ft tall and roughly 90 lbs.

The Glock 42 is always a challenge for her. She can shoot it quite well but the slide is difficult to work. My 19.4 is just thick enough thatshe either can't get good trigger finger placement or the web of her thumb isn't behind the grip.

We tried a CZ75 and the slide was impossible to rack due to the internal slide rails. She also hated the weight.

I bought an M&P 15-22 that she can shoot all day and quite well. She'll struggle to hit 2/3 scale silhouettes at 15 yards with a pistol but then drill 6" plates at 25 yards with the 15-22 without breaking a sweat.

I will probably just order a Shield EZ this fall for her to experiment with.

Isn’t there a striker plate that has ears or something for slide manipulations?

[Whirlwind06]

The Walther CCP slide seems really easy to work. I don't have any experience with it other then checking it out at a gun shop.

Might be another option.

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[runcible]

I’ve come to the conclusion that most firearms programs teach most firearms students well enough; but those same programs are poorly equipped to teach most people.

There’s a selection bias in play, on account of the screening/hiring/training processes themselves homogenizing the student body.

More so, most curriculums and deliveries are more a matter of tradition than necessarily because it’s the outcome of a deliberate process to identify how to convey the subject matter.

Lastly, shooting is an amazingly unathletic activity for many - though, those greater in constitution may do well enough; whether that be in terms of hand size, strength, height, or weight.

A robust shooting curriculum should provide for shooters large and small in equal measure; and with a minimum of stature-specific adaptations. The more adaptations are required for a slightness in any of the above-listed attributes, the more I look askance at the curriculum.

I have yet to see the push-pull method of teaching slide-racking to work satisfactorily; it’s got a lot of moving parts involved and with an element of timing.

For manipulations, several adaptations have been consistently useful for shooters of all statutes. First is for the trigger finger to be indexed against the frame with positive pressure exerted (very similar to the positive register point of ECQC, but on-frame) - this prevents the weapon rolling in their hand when they attempt to rack the slide, and makes for a more efficient expression of the motion. Additionally, it helps reduce bending in the wrist during the same. Secondly, posting the shooting-side elbow slightly forward of one’s side, with a definitive index of elbow against ribs: this reduces the number of joints that have to provide resistance in order for the slide to be pulled rearwards away from the frame, and the incompressible nature of forearm bones provides desirable resistance to the motion. Lastly, pinching with the support hand’s thumb and forefinger +/- the social finger, seems to be stronger in everyone I’ve asked on the matter, as opposed to the strength of clasping one’s fingertips to the corresponding palm; like false-gripping for pull-ups or some lifts, it is counter-intuitive but consistently so. (Very few can pinch me to the point of discomfort by clasping 1-4 fingertips towards their palm with the web of my hand in the middle; by almost everyone can make it painful with a thumb and forefinger alone.) Following with that, unless the weapon system has a conflict with that (e.g Beretta M9 - pinch-rack those from forward of the ejection port), most get more consistent performance by pinching the back of the slide in order to cycle it or lock it to the rear.

(BLUF: shift the trigger finger from the positive register to the frame index, index the shooting-side elbow outboard of the abdominals and forward of one’s side, set the pinch around the slide, rack by drawing the pinch back towards one’s center-sternum.)

For locking the slide to the rear, prepositioning the edge of the thumb beneath the appropriate lever and pre-loading pressure onwards and upwards, prior to the slide being racked, takes much of the timing and finesse out of the process. There is an exception in this for lefties with non-ambi pistols, wherein the support thumb swipes the left-side lever upwards after the slide is racked and held at the rear. (Pressure on the rear of the slide remains primarily from the support hand’s index finger and thumb, but in this case the index finger is pressing-towards/opposed-by the thumb’s second knuckle instead of the thumb’s tip.)

For the shooting, I see no benefit to belaboring or aggrandizing the pomp and flare of recoil/report/muzzle-blast; they can speak well enough for themselves. Everyone gets doubled-up earpro, everyone wrings the gun with full pectoral and trapezius engagement, and everyone supports the press of their trigger finger with an actively pressing support-hand thumb. (Revolvers don’t get used as first-time guns in part for that latter reason.) Ensuring that there is sufficient finger on the trigger to press it from front to rear in a singular manner, is far more rewarding than trying to align the centerline of the weapon with their wrist/web/ulna/whatever. The wringing component may be increased until the wrists articulate little or not at all, during recoil.

First-timers get walked through the focal shift from target focus to a front-sight focus, and then building a sight picture. This may be verified again before subsequent rounds being fired. Breathing is also dictated aloud for first-timers. Follow-through is described and directed BEFORE the first shot is fired; as it ties in tangibly with grip-strength and recoil management.

Stance is taught either through mountain-goating or attempting to push over a structural wall. Shoulders forward of the hips, feet deeply staggered, with the support-side in lead and with a bend in the knee; hips square to the target, head upright, and both full arms at full extension. (Its a lot less of a mouthful to just mountain goat or push on a wall.)

At any age, size, presence or absence of physical fitness, and skill level; we all do better when we’re shooting with our whole bodies and in an efficient and deliberate manner.

[BillSWPA]

Mas Ayoob published an article in one of the gun magazines many years ago wherein he discussed various methods of making things easier for shooters with various disabilities. In one instance, if I recall correctly, he described a magazine pouch that held the magazines with the feed lips pointing up, so that the shooter could simply bring the gun down on the magazine. I do not know which pouch or quite how that would work. I wish I had saved it.



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