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Thread: New Remington V3 Tactical

  1. #11
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    outside of the enthusiast market, how much does that *really* matter do you think?
    Significantly.

    I don't really get many enthusiasts in Home Defense Shotgun. It's primarily normal people who are looking for some information on home defense and some skill with a firearm that will allow them to capably defend themselves should the need arise. Those fractions of an inch make a significant impact on where, exactly, they can mount the gun. The more inboard they can get the gun the better they can manage recoil. Recoil management is the key to allowing someone to actually train with the weapon to the point of competence or proficiency.

    The enthusiast who will work with the gun even if it is sub-optimal is going to find a way to cope. It's actually the non-enthusiast who needs a shorter stock the most.
    3/15/2016

  2. #12
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    Significantly.

    I don't really get many enthusiasts in Home Defense Shotgun. It's primarily normal people who are looking for some information on home defense and some skill with a firearm that will allow them to capably defend themselves should the need arise. Those fractions of an inch make a significant impact on where, exactly, they can mount the gun. The more inboard they can get the gun the better they can manage recoil. Recoil management is the key to allowing someone to actually train with the weapon to the point of competence or proficiency.

    The enthusiast who will work with the gun even if it is sub-optimal is going to find a way to cope. It's actually the non-enthusiast who needs a shorter stock the most.
    That seems to be kind of making my point, but that's probably because we're seeing "enthusiast" differently. In the greater wide world of firearms ownership I'm defining the "enthusiast" as anyone who would sign up for "Home Defense Shotgun" or will "actually train with the weapon to the point of competence or proficiency", which IME is extremely rare in the broader sample size of people buying/owning guns.

    How short does it need to be able to go? It appears that the V3 can go down to 13" with OEM options.

    Generally though I get your point, and to expand upon that point it seems that shotgun manufacturers have been out of touch relative to stock length on shotguns marketed for defense for a long time.

  3. #13
    Site Supporter Borderland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    That seems to be kind of making my point, but that's probably because we're seeing "enthusiast" differently. In the greater wide world of firearms ownership I'm defining the "enthusiast" as anyone who would sign up for "Home Defense Shotgun" or will "actually train with the weapon to the point of competence or proficiency", which IME is extremely rare in the broader sample size of people buying/owning guns.

    How short does it need to be able to go? It appears that the V3 can go down to 13" with OEM options.

    Generally though I get your point, and to expand upon that point it seems that shotgun manufacturers have been out of touch relative to stock length on shotguns marketed for defense for a long time.
    Exactly. How or why would anyone become a "home defense shotgun" enthusiast? Home defense is secondary for me. I purchase based on target or concealed carry uses. I don't think I've ever purchased a gun strictly for home defense. It has to be able to do something else primarily.

    Most people would buy a shotgun for either hunting or clays. I'm sure there is a small segment out there who do neither and get talked into a shotgun for HD. If they don't hunt or shoot clays they find out real fast that it isn't a pleasant endeavor to train for something that has a very low probability of actually happening. Probably end up in a closet or under a bed for the duration would be my guess.

    The V3 looks modular to me. If you can change barrels and stocks it could be dual purpose. Field/HD or clays/HD. Remington did their homework here. Shotguns can be versatile if you don't start throwing a bunch of crap on them that isn't necessary and limits their versatility. I like the concept at least. Might want to add an 18" cyl barrel to the list of available parts.
    Last edited by Borderland; 08-22-2019 at 10:11 AM.
    Snubbies.....resolving CQC issues since nineteen fiddy.

  4. #14
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    New Remington V3 Tactical

    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    I don't think there is a good solution for shortening the LOP on the Remington semi-autos...which is of significant importance in a defensive shotgun unless you are over 6'2" tall.
    The V3 doesnít have the recoil spring/system going into the stock. If someone were so inclined, I imagine an 870 stock adapter could be made up to throw a Magpul SGA on it.

    ETA, didnít see that XRslug beat me to it. I wasnít aware that the adapter already existed. Hopefully Remington will offer them for sale soon.




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    Last edited by ragnar_d; 08-22-2019 at 11:11 AM.
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  5. #15
    New Member ASH556's Avatar
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    Can we forget about overall height and talk about arm length instead? For instance, I need a 36/37 sleeve in a dress shirt. Otherwise the cuff will end up 1/3 of the way up my forearm when I make my arms straight. For me a Benelli M2 stock then feels and mounts perfectly (though everyone talks about it being too long) and a 1301 feels too small when I pick it up.

    I'm only 6'0" though.
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  6. #16
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borderland View Post
    Exactly. How or why would anyone become a "home defense shotgun" enthusiast? Home defense is secondary for me. I purchase based on target or concealed carry uses. I don't think I've ever purchased a gun strictly for home defense. It has to be able to do something else primarily.

    Most people would buy a shotgun for either hunting or clays. I'm sure there is a small segment out there who do neither and get talked into a shotgun for HD. If they don't hunt or shoot clays they find out real fast that it isn't a pleasant endeavor to train for something that has a very low probability of actually happening. Probably end up in a closet or under a bed for the duration would be my guess.
    Any shotgun can be pressed into service as a defensive weapon, but just like every other firearm a weapon dedicated to that purpose and set up properly for the task is vastly preferable should you actually need to use it for self defense.

    Target guns exist for target shooting. Clays guns exist for clay shooting. Raceguns exist for the games they are good at. Specialized equipment exists across the spectrum in firearms.

    There are between 1.5 million and 3 million defensive uses of a firearm in the United States every year. The vast majority of those incidents happen in and around the home simply because most people are not going out in public armed. Needing a gun to defend yourself is not, in fact, a "low probability" problem. It's a far higher probability problem than most people believe.

    The possible defensive use of a firearm is the primary motivating factor in a purchase for an ever-growing percentage of the population. Once they are involved they may well find that they enjoy shooting, but the thing that gets them to buy a gun in the first place is the desire to protect themselves.

    While you may not have any desire for a dedicated home defense gun, others do. It is, in fact, one of the primary reasons why people buy guns.

    If we tally the number of seconds my carry gun has been in my holster versus the number of seconds it has been in my hands during a dangerous situation, the ratio would be absurd...but during the few seconds that I needed it, I really needed it.

    The shotgun offers significant advantages as a defensive weapon in the situations a typical citizen is likely to face if they or their home is targeted by violent criminals. It is the most effective weapon available for immediately stopping a violent assault by a determined adversary. Facing a typical home invasion scenario with multiple armed attackers, the ability to neutralize an individual threat with a single press of the trigger is an excellent force multiplier.

    The 870 I shoot birds with isn't set up properly for that task. So I have an 870 that is.

    You can shoot clays or just about any sized game with a shotgun that's set up as a defensive gun. I've killed a number of critters with a rifle-sighted 870. It is not necessarily optimized for clays, but it's a hell of a lot easier to use a defensively configured gun to wing shoot than it is to press a gun set up for wing shooting into service as a defensive weapon.

    As cheaply as police trade-in 870's can be had these days, it's not exactly going to bankrupt anyone to have a dedicated defensive shotgun.

    My father has spent decades hunting with an 870, so getting him set up with an 870 configured for defensive use was an easy transition. If someone uses a shotgun for sporting use, having a dedicated defensive shotgun that shares the same manual of arms makes a lot of sense.
    3/15/2016

  7. #17
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASH556 View Post
    Can we forget about overall height and talk about arm length instead? For instance, I need a 36/37 sleeve in a dress shirt. Otherwise the cuff will end up 1/3 of the way up my forearm when I make my arms straight. For me a Benelli M2 stock then feels and mounts perfectly (though everyone talks about it being too long) and a 1301 feels too small when I pick it up.

    I'm only 6'0" though.
    Yes, if you fall outside the bell curve for arm length in relation to overall height then you can go with a longer length of pull. But as a general rule using one's height is one of the better ways of estimating what is likely to work for a perfect stranger on the internet. If you can break out the tape measures and get exact, by all means do so.

    With that said, from a usability standpoint it is a lot easier for someone who is larger to use a stock that is "too small" than it is for someone who is smaller to use a stock that is too long. The stock 13" LOP on a 1301 worked just fine for me. I have found, however, that shortening it up further gives me a little more flexibility and makes the gun much easier to use for the large number of people it gets loaned out to.

    I've put a Magpul SGA equipped 1301 in the hands of people ranging from large men to very small women and all of them seemed to be able to use the gun without issue.
    Last edited by TCinVA; 08-26-2019 at 09:51 AM.
    3/15/2016

  8. #18
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    The possible defensive use of a firearm is the primary motivating factor in a purchase for an ever-growing percentage of the population. Once they are involved they may well find that they enjoy shooting, but the thing that gets them to buy a gun in the first place is the desire to protect themselves.
    I've often wondered about this. I realize you're actually saying something that's probably hard to quantify since you're not saying it's the primary motivating factor for all gun buyers but that it's becoming a more common primary motivating factor.

    Either way, I wonder if there are any sorts of trackable statistics or studies or surveys on this. "Our" segment of course sees itself as the primary segment, while farmers and rednecks all over the country are still just out there buying guns to shoot animals (fake and real) with.

    Thinking back to the first time I went to SHOT when the ninja section was pushed off into a separate room hidden away and the last time I went where it seemed 1/3 of the floor was black or multi-cam, and it would certainly seem to validate the idea that more people than ever concern themselves with "defense" (whatever their definition of that may be).

    Personally, going back to the gun at hand, I'm less and less willing to sign over significant parts of my life or real-estate for gun stuff. So having been down the tac-tard road ("almost as far as hell" to quote a famous singer) I'm far more interested now than ever with having "one gun", particularly if it means one "manual of arms" for the wife (and eventually, god willing, the kids). Once upon a time I'd have sacrificed game/sport performance in favor of ninja needs, but today I'm pretty much totally the opposite. I'll take what's perhaps a sub-standard ergonomics by defense-enthusiast standards in favor of better performance on the clays course and perfectly acceptable potential performance for defense. I suppose there's even an argument to be made that if the shooter isn't going to seek training or practice in defense mode then having the gun pretty much exactly like they're used to just perhaps slightly shorter at the barrel and and holding more of a different type of shell would actually be preferential.

    In other words, I'd rather my wife be defending the family with a gun she's familiar with from the clays course than one she's not enthused enough about to ever shoot.

  9. #19
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    Yes, if you fall outside the bell curve for arm length in relation to overall height then you can go with a longer length of pull. But as a general rule using one's height is one of the better ways of estimating what is likely to work for a perfect stranger on the internet. If you can break out the tape measures and get exact, by all means do so.

    With that said, from a usability standpoint it is a lot easier for someone who is larger to use a stock that is "too small" than it is for someone who is smaller to use a stock that is too long. The stock 13" LOP on a 1301 worked just fine for me. I have found, however, that shortening it up further gives me a little more flexibility and makes the gun much easier to use for the large number of people it gets loaned out to.

    I've put a Magpul SGA equipped 1301 in the hands of people ranging from large men to very small women and all of them seemed to be able to use the gun without issue.
    Any thoughts on the "average" LOP for "average" folk to look to? I've been meaning to trim some length off the long OEM stock on my late '50s vintage 870. I went a little too short on a Mossie years ago and had a time keeping lips and nose out of recoil's way, albeit "push pull" was unknown to me at the time.
    "I realized all the mindset talk was useless without action and that with action, all the mindset talk was unnecessary." - Mike Pannone

  10. #20
    Site Supporter Borderland's Avatar
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    While you may not have any desire for a dedicated home defense gun, others do. It is, in fact, one of the primary reasons why people buy guns.
    Roger that.

    I look at self defense a bit differently. 1) I don't live in a densely populated area. 2) Home invasions don't happen very often where I live. 3) I'm much more likely to need a firearm in my travels away from home. 4) I keep my firearms in a safe when I'm not at home. That would require me storing and retrieving a shotgun from my safe every day.

    Lots of states are passing laws to keep firearms secure when they're not in use. We have a law like that in this state. If the firearm isn't on your person it has to be secure from theft. Somebody steals your unsecured weapon, use it in a crime and you get prosecuted. Sounds like fun to me.

    I would just as soon not deal with that crap. I realize that not everyone can get a carry permit so a shotgun might be the best option there. Probably would be but I'm fine with my P-239 carry. It's my dedicated defense gun..... period. YMMV.
    Last edited by Borderland; 08-26-2019 at 12:29 PM.
    Snubbies.....resolving CQC issues since nineteen fiddy.

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