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Thread: Modern Relevance of the Cooper Color Code?

  1. #21
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    As I see it, the advantage of Coopers color codes lies in their simplicity and that simplicity is responsible for their continued relevance. Most instructors will be dealing with Cleetus and the soccer mom as students, not DEVGRU ranger dudes. You don't have to be a MENSA candidate to grasp them, which is the entire point.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

  2. #22
    I lived in AZ for quite a few years, including 4 years in Prescott. I am now officially bummed I never took the opportunity to train at Gunsite.
    David S.

  3. #23
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    David S:

    1. Its not too late. IMHO, the program has evolved to reflect significant input from BTDT folks while given credit where credit is due to Cooper et al.
    2. Many instructors that teach there were taught by Cooper or are 1 gen removed
    3. The facilities are world class
    4. The area is beautiful to my eyes
    5. You will be a better shooter and perhaps even a person from having spent 5 days there

    Edge of Lane Comment

    While I fully acknowledge that nothing involving bodily kinesthetic movement in 2019 looks like it did in 1989 when attempted to be performed at its best, the vast majority of us would be just fine using circa 1989 technique, with a full on bladed weaver, carrying a 5 inch 1911, loaded with a hollowpoint of the era (Silvertip/Hydra Shok/Speer Pre Gold Dot etc), particularly if we do not wear body armor on a daily basis.
    Last edited by vcdgrips; 09-18-2019 at 11:33 AM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by vcdgrips View Post

    Edge of Lane Comment

    While I fully acknowledge that nothing involving bodily kinesthetic movement in 2019 looks like it did in 1989 when attempted to be performed at its best, the vast majority of us would be just fine using circa 1989 technique, with a full on bladed weaver, carrying a 5 inch 1911, loaded with a hollowpoint of the era (Silvertip/Hydra Shok/Speer Pre Gold Dot etc), particularly if we do not wear body armor on a daily basis.
    I don't disagree, the vast majority would be just fine using the Weaver. Having said that, breaking it down, though, we went from using one hand firing techniques, to two hand firing techniques in what would be loosely termed an isosceles, to Weaver, then back to isosceles...why is that?

    I believe it is because the Weaver is a 'contrived' stance, nothing about the stance is a natural response to danger. On the other hand, the Isosceles is somewhat based on the body's natural alarm response.

    Even back in the day we recognized that teaching run of the mill officers the Weaver stance, was somewhat counterproductive, because very little of the stance is naturally assumed.

    Just my thoughts.

  5. #25
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    I believe it is because the Weaver is a 'contrived' stance, nothing about the stance is a natural response to danger.
    This is interesting.

  6. #26
    Member ubervic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    I believe it is because the Weaver is a 'contrived' stance, nothing about the stance is a natural response to danger. On the other hand, the Isosceles is somewhat based on the body's natural alarm response.

    Even back in the day we recognized that teaching run of the mill officers the Weaver stance, was somewhat counterproductive, because very little of the stance is naturally assumed.
    Related: I've never fought that very vigorously against my somewhat natural tendency to hunch shoulders /duck head a bit while drawing & firing, mainly because I imagine that I'll be very inclined to repeat such body movements if I'm really in a SHTF moment----and I may as well be well-versed in aiming & firing in such a state.

    Apologies for the thread drift.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by vcdgrips View Post
    David S:

    1. Its not too late. . . . .
    Except I don't live in AZ anymore. . . and now have little ones.

    As you alluded to, I blew off Gunsite primarily because of the "outdated" Modern Technique and because I was poor. In retrospect, that was a bad choice.

    Youth is wasted on the young. C'est la Vie
    Last edited by David S.; 09-18-2019 at 09:51 PM.
    David S.

  8. #28
    Until there is something more relevant or a scientifically better / more proven version of this, as it applies to this particular representation of physical conditions, interpersonal violence and mindset I'll continue to use them.

    I've used them in official reports and when asked I've referenced him and his publications as well as others on the topic (ayoob for one). IA and court easily accept this type of stuff for references into force use.
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  9. #29
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    I guess it was contrived by Jack Weaver, getting two hands on the handgun and bringing it to eye level with hands/arms working together. As time went by, there was discussion on it not being the be all, end all. Perusing the Commentaries will get one to it.

    Whether one choose to shot from it or a variation of it, a lot of what I see people complaining about with it wasn’t taught at, by Gunsite. Rather it was taught by others two, three, four layers removed. The “Weaver” I was taught in the police academy in ‘89 was very different from what I was shown during in-service at LAPD in ‘91 and during my 250 in ‘94. However, this seems to be the argument whenever Cooper or the school comes up.

    I won’t argue about the support elbow. For quite a while the website had an article addressing the school’s position about stance, platform concerns.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    I believe it is because the Weaver is a 'contrived' stance
    Did it come about because cops are often in a situation where their gun is already drawn and they are still verbally engaging with someone? Like, if you've got time to draw and talk, then might as well take the time for building a stance step by step? Mod Iso fits both competition and self defense with it's piggybacking on the startle response.

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