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Thread: Modern Relevance of the Cooper Color Code?

  1. #31
    Site Supporter jetfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erick Gelhaus View Post
    I guess it was contrived by Jack Weaver, getting two hands on the handgun and bringing it to eye level with hands/arms working together. As time went by, there was discussion on it not being the be all, end all. Perusing the Commentaries will get one to it.

    Whether one choose to shot from it or a variation of it, a lot of what I see people complaining about with it wasn’t taught at, by Gunsite. Rather it was taught by others two, three, four layers removed. The “Weaver” I was taught in the police academy in ‘89 was very different from what I was shown during in-service at LAPD in ‘91 and during my 250 in ‘94. However, this seems to be the argument whenever Cooper or the school comes up.

    I won’t argue about the support elbow. For quite a while the website had an article addressing the school’s position about stance, platform concerns.
    A fun anecdote about why Jack shot the way he did - he had a shoulder injury in his support arm that prevented him from comfortably extending that arm to its full reach, and so the best way he could get two hands on the gun and manage recoil was what we now see as the classic Weaver stance.
    I shot the PX4 before it was cool.

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Erick Gelhaus View Post
    I guess it was contrived by Jack Weaver, getting two hands on the handgun and bringing it to eye level with hands/arms working together. As time went by, there was discussion on it not being the be all, end all. Perusing the Commentaries will get one to it.
    Contrived may not be the best, most accurate, word to use, but I couldn't think of another.

    We all know Jack Weaver developed the stance to increase his speed and accuracy in the 'Leatherslap' competitions, using two hands and bringing the pistol to eye level, which was seemingly earth shaking at the time.

    IMO the stance is 'contrived' because the use of isometric tension (the push-pull) is not a natural act. It worked, and still works, but if I had minimum hours, and masses of shooters to teach, more 'natural' stances work better.

    BTW - I totally get the three or four layers removed, many folks think because they rotate their support elbow down they are shooting 'Weaver' as an example.

    Sorry if I offended.
    Last edited by Dan Lehr; 09-20-2019 at 02:45 AM.

  3. #33
    You won't get the most benefit from Cooper's Color Code till you understand it's about mental readiness ... NOT awareness.
    Critical thinking, done in the absence of context and relevance, can only produce something useful to someone with an overactive imagination.
    Knowing and understanding is not the same thing.
    Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by 41magfan View Post
    You won't get the most benefit from Cooper's Color Code till you understand it's about mental readiness ... NOT awareness.
    I'd like to hear thoughts on whether the Color Code can or should be connected with Boyd's Cycle or OODA?

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    ...We all know Jack Weaver developed the stance to increase his speed and accuracy in the 'Leatherslap' competitions, using two hands and bringing the pistol to eye level, which was seemingly earth shaking at the time.

    IMO the stance is 'contrived' because the use of isometric tension (the push-pull) is not a natural act. It worked, and still works, but if I had minimum hours, and masses of shooters to teach, more 'natural' stances work better...
    Years and years ago, Duane Thomas wrote an article tearing the Weaver stance apart with some special emphasis on calling BS that anyone could exert 60/40 pressure during a gunfight, etc. Jack Weaver responded in a letter to the editor and I remember these being the highlights of his rebuttal:

    - Who's Duane Thomas?

    - I never specified any of that 60/40 stuff, I just shot better using two hands.

    - I'm pretty sure that if I needed to shoot to save my life while falling out of a tree, I'd come up with a method for it and someone else would go around telling people how I did it.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Mutt View Post
    Years and years ago, Duane Thomas wrote an article tearing the Weaver stance apart with some special emphasis on calling BS that anyone could exert 60/40 pressure during a gunfight, etc. Jack Weaver responded in a letter to the editor and I remember these being the highlights of his rebuttal:

    - Who's Duane Thomas?

    - I never specified any of that 60/40 stuff, I just shot better using two hands.

    - I'm pretty sure that if I needed to shoot to save my life while falling out of a tree, I'd come up with a method for it and someone else would go around telling people how I did it.
    In any readings I have done Cooper always credited Weaver. Could the 60/40 be something that he, Cooper, established as he defined and hone what is called 'the Modern Technique?'

    Seems entirely likely.

    Years ago, Duane Thomas, probably did not understand what we understand today about how the mind works. His intuitive guess might have been that it was impossible. Perhaps he interviewed someone who didn't remember exerting that pressure because it had been relegated to the 'not important to process' file in an emotional event and he based his belief on that event.

    One of the myths that still abounds in training is that 'in a gunfight your vision becomes fixed and you won't be able to use your sights.' This statement is likely true for someone locked in the throes of a fight or flight response, but what of the person who has experienced such events, in training, in actuality, or through mental rehearsal?

    Cooper is quoted as reporting that one of his students, when asked what he saw during his armed encounter, said 'I was focusing on the front sight so hard I saw the striations.'

    WE can learn behaviors to help us overcome the stress response, it isn't voodoo as it once was.
    Last edited by Dan Lehr; 09-20-2019 at 07:43 PM.

  7. #37
    Site Supporter jetfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    Years ago, Duane Thomas, probably did not understand what we understand today about how the mind works. His intuitive guess might have been that it was impossible. Perhaps he interviewed someone who didn't remember exerting that pressure because it had been relegated to the 'not important to process' file in an emotional event and he based his belief on that event.
    Or he's a hack who's just repetaing gunternet lore as though it's fact and hoping he'll get away with it.
    I shot the PX4 before it was cool.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by jetfire View Post
    Or he's a hack who's just repetaing gunternet lore as though it's fact and hoping he'll get away with it.
    He certainly isn't a writer I follow. I believe he sometimes has articles in the Blue Press (Dillon Precision's mag/catalog).

  9. #39
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    I studied Col. Cooper's materials very carefully when I first began shooting and using handguns very seriously when I was old enough to carry them legally and his wisdom holds true today and have influenced, in my opinion, most serious handgun trainers to this day. I have always approached trainers and instruction classes, no matter how often I've taken them, this way: listen carefully, learn what you can, pick up anything new for your "toolbox" ... learning never ends, training never is enough, keep shooting well and often.

  10. #40
    Member Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    Sorry if I offended.
    You didn't. Check your PMs.

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