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Thread: “New York Reload”

  1. #11
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    I actually carried two to three revolvers, 2” to 4”, during personal time, from early 2002 until late 2006, as the default daily norm. It started as an SP101 teamed with J-snubs, with a spurless-hammer 4” Speed Six and more SP101 snubs joining the team as time went onward. (I had, also, often carried multiple revolvers, since 1984, but do not clearly recall my practices and tactics, and it usually being a 2” snub teamed with something notable larger and more shootable, it was a primary-and-backup thing, not a “NY reload thing.) Now, in retirement, from LEO-ing, I am probably about to default back to revolvers, as the daily norm.

    First, and foremost, if one is carrying an auto-pistol, speed-reloading a fresh mag is probably faster than drawing a deeply-concealed second handgun. When carrying my duty pistol, during personal time, I never saw the snub-gun as an equal, until I somewhat-reluctantly used G22 duty pistols from 2002-2004, when I could shoot an SP101 about well as the Glock, out to about 15 yards, when the longer sight radius started favoring the G22.

    I trained to be functionally ambidextrous with handguns, nearly from the beginning. (I am left-handed, and right-armed, so the draw was more natural righty, while actual pulling the trigger, especially single-action, was more natural lefty.) My ideal goal, in the event of an empty “primary” weapon, was to draw the second gun, first, to cover the threat(s), then, if behind good cover, attempt a one-handed reload technique. This lessens the possibility of an unloaded weapon’s ammo status being forgotten, in the heat of the moment. If attempting a one-hand reload is not practicable, it is probably best to stash the empty/malf’-ed weapon.

    More thoughts; random order:

    1. On the street, I would rather NOT drop a firearm. I never trained to do it, but, in the heat of ECQC, in 2005, I dropped a malf’-ing G22 into the dirt, and pulled my pocketed SP101. This taught me to train more diligently to retain retain a malf’-ed weapon.

    2. An unloaded weapon, in a holster, can have undesirable unintended consequences, if one reflexively draws it while empty, thinking it is loaded. Smaller weapons, such as my SP101 snub-guns, can be shoved into a back pocket, if empty, which is one reason I do not keep a bunch of things in my back pockets.

    2. Seriously, listen to the Primary & Secondary Youtube video interview with DB. It is on podcast, too, but there are visuals, so, see it, if practicable.

    3. On the street, if the draw is done while anticipating the need for the weapon, and the weapons are roughly equivalent, one can consider drawing the “second” gun first, especially if it is small enough to shove into a pocket, if/when it empties.

    4. Listen to the lessons, from the late, great Pat Rogers, as told by DB, in the video/podcast mentioned in #2, above. While it does not specifically address what to do with an empty weapon, there is pure gold in there. Notably, the spare revolver ammo was kept adjacent to the smaller revolver’s AIWB holster. With an open-carried duty rig, the AIWB holster was behind the spare ammo carrier, which hid the J. For concealed carry, in my opinion, the concept is good, but stacking the spare ammo, over the weapon, will probably bulge a bit too much, so carrying the spare ammo to one side, or the other, is probably the better bet.

    Outta time; outta here; will return after doing some banking stuff.
    Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.

    Don’t tread on volcanos!

  2. #12
    I'm just a low speed/high drag kinda guy with his leg propped up recovering from a knee arthroscopy, but I've this to add to the conversation: I used to train and visit annually with Louie Awerbuck (RIP, you wonderful, brilliant, and yes, kind, curmudgeon) when he'd come to IN and I can still hear his lilting SA accent as he'd say, "My only tactical mandate is this; carry two guns." So for years, I did just that with a G23 & G27 in IWB rigs. Of course, I owned my own business back then and could dress as I chose, so that made it fairly easy to do.

    Louie taught that if your primary stopped for any reason during a gunfight, you didn't diagnose it, you pulled it into retention and drew your second pistol and operated in one handed, hence his choice of a chopped G19 for his left hand pistol. He also preached that you shouldn't try to run the secondary pistol two handed as sooner or later, you'd find your primary thumb wrapped over your off hand. He didn't care that you might get your thumb grooved, rather that it could cause a malfunction.

  3. #13
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    I Thought the New York reload was in response to the strict policy’s of NYPD limiting which firearms, holsters and ammo carry. Reloading a model 10 before speedloaders was deadly slow so the practical and prudent choice was to go to another gun. Dropping a gun while being shot at is not ideal but preferable to being shot. anyone who is not a police officer would be surprised how often police drop their guns; not to mention a look at the door ways, walls and desks around the station would reveal the hip level scars of years of officers bumping their holstered guns against things. Today a semi auto pistol is faster to reload but a second gun as a backup is just as important as ever. I would ridicule officers in my department that refused to carry a backup gun. When I worked the range I would ask them what was their plan? Runaway?
    Last edited by Poconnor; 08-16-2019 at 10:35 AM.

  4. #14
    This video on Magazine bans, taught me about New York reloads and they do drop the gun. That said, I haven't watched it in a long time, but I remember in one instance, a shooter, shot a ten round magazine gun, quicker/better then a fifteen round gun. Don't know if it was balance or what, but it made me think, if someone has limitations (people already deal with grip sizes, tape or slick grips, arthritis, etc), then try and see what works for you.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by beenalongtime View Post
    This video on Magazine bans, taught me about New York reloads and they do drop the gun. That said, I haven't watched it in a long time, but I remember in one instance, a shooter, shot a ten round magazine gun, quicker/better then a fifteen round gun. Don't know if it was balance or what, but it made me think, if someone has limitations (people already deal with grip sizes, tape or slick grips, arthritis, etc), then try and see what works for you.
    This video is silly. First, it’s obvious he’s firing faster with the lesser capacity magazines. Also, he’s reloading off a barrel, which is typically faster than reloading from the person, under concealment. Lastly, when he went to 6 rounds, he needed to pull the magazines out of the gun? Not a very controlled test, and that’s where I stopped watching.

  6. #16
    If you want to practice dropping the primary gun, then get a blue gun.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumpnav View Post
    If you want to practice dropping the primary gun, then get a blue gun.
    I agree completely. Some techniques are dangerous to people, gear, or the peace of mind that you can't realistically perform them live fire. Utilizing blue guns or, in some cases, Simunition/UTM rounds allows realistic training with appropriate safety measures.

  8. #18
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Generally, I would not want to drop a gun, in a street/field situation, and, if I drop a gun, due to necessity, it would be ideal to recover it as soon as safely practicable. An opponent, or third party, could recover the dropped gun, with tragic consequences.

    Using the example that occurred in during my ECQC class, it was an out-of-spec slide latch that was locking open, while still loaded, with unfamiliar 180-grain ammo. (This G22 had run fine, with 165-grain ammo.) Had it been a real-life situation, an opponent could have picked up a quite functional gun, and made it run full-speed by keeping the slide latch in the down position.

    My best guess is that I had programmed myself, in training, to drop a contact weapon, such as a baton, if I had to go to a handgun. In the heat of the moment, during the ECQC class, I therefore reflexively dropped the malf’ing G22, as if it were a contact weapon, and went for my secondary SP101.

    I had not trained to drop a long gun, when transitioning to a handgun. My employer's (Houston PD, in Texas) training had not really addressed, in detail, what to do when transitioning from shotgun to handgun, as long gun training was not intensive, in the Eighties. When two-gun, shotgun/handgun training came along, in the Nineties, we were trained to retain the long gun, solve the immediate problem with the duty pistol, then, when possible to do so, diagnose/fix the long gun.

    A later version of the two-gun class was renamed “tactical shotgun,” and required the participants to bring a single-attachment point sling. Although lited as an HPD class, it was taught at the Sheriff’s range. I never attended this one, as I had already tried, and soundly rejected, this type of sling, for my purposes. A later version of tactical shotgun, taught at the HPD range, did not require us to use a single-attachment-point sling, and I attended that one. Again, dropping the weapon was not part of the curriculum.

    Patrol rifle certification and training started in 2002, and, again, retaining the long weapon was emphasized. I shoot rifles lefty, so did not even need to break my firing grip, on the rifle, to draw and fire the duty pistol, from its holster, at 0300 on the duty belt. (Yes, I am a left-hander, who carries “primary” at 0300. ‘Tis a long story.)

    Edited to add: I retired from HPD in early 2018, and there have been changes in firearms training/policies, since then.
    Last edited by Rex G; 08-17-2019 at 01:43 PM.
    Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.

    Don’t tread on volcanos!

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Duelist View Post
    Used to be that PPC would have folks running two full sized DA revolvers and the fast guys would drop a spent gun as they drew the second one.
    I was a PPC shooter, beginning in the mid 70's, I missed that part.

  10. #20
    Member
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    Sep 2012
    Location
    Wappinger NY
    I was a NYPD Police Officer in the 1980’s. I practiced the New York reload. I carried a Model 36 appendix carry
    on my weak side. When I fired my revolver to empty I reholstered my revolver and drew my backup and fired.

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