Richard Mann FBI ammo overview

[JHC]

Never heard of the guy.

My rules:

1) buy stuff in-stock from what is on Doc’s list
2) focus on shot placement
3) if out of ammo, return to 1)

+1 and all else being equal, I'll lean towards the better barrier performing load. Cause it's a hard world.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Never heard of the guy.

My rules:

1) buy stuff in-stock from what is on Doc’s list
2) focus on shot placement
3) if out of ammo, return to 1)

Good advice. For LE load selection, I've found (and Doc has confirmed) that if you have a load that does well in the 4LD and the windshield glass test, you have a load that will work well across a range of uses in the real world.

[DocGKR]

Wayne Dobbs is correct....as usual.

[Jeep]

Good advice. For LE load selection, I've found (and Doc has confirmed) that if you have a load that does well in the 4LD and the windshield glass test, you have a load that will work well across a range of uses in the real world.

As a non-LEO, I skip the windshield glass test and simply look at the 4LD. And that's only because I find the results interesting. Basically, I too simply rely on Doc's advice (and price) in my selection. In other words, I try to buy the cheapest reasonably available load that Doc says is good, hope I never have to use it, but train to use it effectively.

[OMWAG]

Ok, Here is the Cliff Notes abbreviated version of the article.

Organic ballistic gelatin simulates soft tissue of the body, but it is not identical by any means.
Synthetic gel does not match organic gel in characteristics.
Ballistic gel of any type is only a comparative medium for assessing the performance differences between bullets and nothing more.
Ballistic gel tests provide comparisons of expansion and penetration as they are related. Deeper penetration with consistent expansion is generally a good SD round.
The FBI criteria are not perfect but they are the best available.

[Wayne Dobbs]

As a non-LEO, I skip the windshield glass test and simply look at the 4LD. And that's only because I find the results interesting. Basically, I too simply rely on Doc's advice (and price) in my selection. In other words, I try to buy the cheapest reasonably available load that Doc says is good, hope I never have to use it, but train to use it effectively.

It's a very bad idea to disregard that windshield glass test for some of these reasons:

1. Do you ever carry a gun in a car for protection from carjackings, kidnap attempts, etc.?
2. Would you consider shooting through the car's glass structures to stop that type of assault?
3. Did you know that since ~2016, ALL the glass in a car is laminate glass exactly like windshields?
4. This test also gauges the ability of a load to defeat a hard barrier, like a bone. Bone is a barrier certain to be present at a defensive shooting, whether it's struck or not during the shooting.
5. The 4LD test is a gold standard, for sure, but it's more than interesting. It's a well thought out test to ascertain whether a load has robust performance, which is an engineering/scientific term for consistent performance across a range of demands.
6. The thought/hope/belief that your assailant will present you an unprotected frontal attitude is not well founded in actual events. They may start that way, but they likely won't remain so.

Use both events.

[RJ]

+1 and all else being equal, I'll lean towards the better barrier performing load. Cause it's a hard world.

I think I asked Doc in the HST thread, so forgive me if I forgot the answer, but for 9mm duty ammo, is this still Federal HST 147?

[JHC]

I think I asked Doc in the HST thread, so forgive me if I forgot the answer, but for 9mm duty ammo, is this still Federal HST 147?

I couldn't say. All else being equal would include how the loads run or POI in a particular pistol. Some prefer +P 124 gr loads etc etc

[RJ]

I couldn't say. All else being equal would include how the loads run or POI in a particular pistol. Some prefer +P 124 gr loads etc etc

Thanks J. I’m just going to rock on with the Federal HST 147. It shoots well out of shooting partners P365 and my G19. I will verify it when I get the G43X in a few months but I don’t expect any issues.

[revchuck38]

I think I asked Doc in the HST thread, so forgive me if I forgot the answer, but for 9mm duty ammo, is this still Federal HST 147?

I'm obviously not Doc, but IIRC he advised that the 147s lose less performance from short barrels than lighter bullets.

FWIW, I'm sticking with 124 +P HST, because I have a few boxes, it shoots to POA, and practice ammo and reloading bullets are cheaper. My shortest 9x19 barrel is 3.5" and it loses about 20 fps compared to the four-inch versions. IOW, not enough to worry about.