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Thread: Richard Mann FBI ammo overview

  1. #1

    Richard Mann FBI ammo overview

    https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/ammu...n-tests-gospel



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  2. #2
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    I kept waiting for the author to get to the point, beyond expressing an opinion. Then the article ended.
    I expected some examples where loads with strong performance in FBI tests performed consistently poorly in the real world, or the opposite, where some load was demonstrated as consistently effective in real life, but doesn’t pass FBI standards.
    But, no.

  3. #3
    Member the Schwartz's Avatar
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    When Mann dismisses results obtained in properly prepared 10% ordnance gelatin as being "simply the findings of a government agency", I am led to wonder about his "expertise" in the field. 10% ordnance gelatin and water are both valid soft tissue representatives(1) that correlate well with terminal behavior observed in pig and human soft tissue(2) models. There are no other tissue simulants that presently have the same amount of research supporting their validity in this role. There is no government fiat involved in this at all as Mann would have us believe.

    Mann also seems to misunderstand the role of the F.B.I. test protocols. Mann's statement that the F.B.I. test protocol is not the primary determinant of a bullet's "ability...to “stop” a bad guy" and that it "does not hinge on the score it receives while being subjected to FBI testing" is correct, but it also suggests that he misunderstands the purpose of the F.B.I. test protocols. The F.B.I. test protocols are simply a series of various mechanical failure tests that are meant to serve as a guide for determining which munitions will perform best through commonly encountered barriers while still providing sufficient penetration afterwards to reach key/vital anatomical structures to bring about involuntary incapacitation.

    Furthermore, Mann's assertion near the end of the article, "And finally, the only folks who adhere to the FBI testing protocol are...members of the FBI", could not be farther from the truth. There are a great number of LE agencies, domestic ammunition manufacturers, and armed citizens that rely upon the F.B.I. test protocols as a guide for choosing their self-defense ammunition; Dr. Gary Roberts, the SME for the Ammunition sub-forum here at P-F, being one of the most knowledgeable resources in that particular regard.

    After reading Mann's article, I am left with the impression that he had a certain amount of column space to fill, but no meaningful input to offer.

    1.) "Police Handgun Ammunition Selection" by Dr. Martin Fackler, MD: pages 32 - 37; Vol. 1, No. 3 Fall 1992, IWBA Wound Ballistics Review
    2.) "Performance of the Winchester 9mm 147 Grain Subsonic Jacketed Hollow Point Bullet in Human Tissue and Tissue Simulant" by Eugene J. Wolberg, Sr. Criminologist, SFPD: pages 10 - 13; Vol. 1, No. 1 Winter 1991, IWBA Wound Ballistics Review
    Last edited by the Schwartz; 08-13-2019 at 02:05 PM.
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  4. #4
    Member ST911's Avatar
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    Mann's website: http://empty-cases.com/blog/
    Host on the Gunsite Academy NOW: https://www.gunsite.com/videos/
    Last edited by ST911; 08-13-2019 at 01:56 PM.
    الدهون القاع الفتيات لك جعل العالم هزاز جولة الذهاب

  5. #5
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    What a waste of time...

  6. #6
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    Waste of time, indeed. Richard Mann fails to understand the importance of Gene Wolberg's research that correlated performance in properly calibrated/mixed 10% ordnance gel to actual street performance in a significant number of gunfights. Richard Mann misses the forest for the trees. How old is this guy and what's his CV? Making such a basic error makes me question anything he writes about guns, self-defense and tactics.

  7. #7
    Florida Man RJ's Avatar
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    Never heard of the guy.

    My rules:

    1) buy stuff in-stock from what is on Doc’s list
    2) focus on shot placement
    3) if out of ammo, return to 1)
    No one can pass through life, any more than he can pass through a bit of country, without leaving tracks behind, and those tracks may often be helpful to those coming after him in finding their way. --Robert Baden-Powell USPSA#A92555

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by paherne View Post
    Waste of time, indeed. Richard Mann fails to understand the importance of Gene Wolberg's research that correlated performance in properly calibrated/mixed 10% ordnance gel to actual street performance in a significant number of gunfights. Richard Mann misses the forest for the trees. How old is this guy and what's his CV? Making such a basic error makes me question anything he writes about guns, self-defense and tactics.
    I'm not sure what his motivation is for an article like this when he's previously done some gel testing of his own.

    I do, however, somewhat agree with this caption: Because FBI testing relies so heavily on barrier testing, the protocol might be better at finding bullets that shoot through things as opposed to bullets that stop bad guys. Or I agree with it but for the wrong reason.

    Barrier blind ammo is getting better all the time and is certainly worth considering. Take the Federal 130 HST 38 +P. My findings are that it probably would do okay as long as barrier penetration isn't high on your list of priorities. That bullet expanded nicely and just barely fell short of 12" in gel. The same bullet basically blew apart when fired against auto glass. Is it a bad load? For home defense it is probably good. For police off duty of backup? Maybe not.

    Even the smallest department has access to FBI's testing data so it isn't like one government agency is keeping all the info under lock and key. Strange the way he worded that part and/or the way it was edited.

    Regards to Mr. Mann; don't quote me on this but I believe he is a retired police officer. I met him back in something like 2010 when he'd just made the decision to try writing as a primary craft. I believe at that time he said he was retiring from a small department somewhere down south.



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    Last edited by Tokarev; 08-13-2019 at 07:13 PM.

  9. #9
    Finely tuned athletic machine Kyle Reese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJ View Post
    Never heard of the guy.

    My rules:

    1) buy stuff in-stock from what is on Doc’s list
    2) focus on shot placement
    3) if out of ammo, return to 1)
    Good rules to live by, I think!


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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by the Schwartz View Post

    After reading Mann's article, I am left with the impression that he had a certain amount of column space to fill, but no meaningful input to offer.

    1.) "Police Handgun Ammunition Selection" by Dr. Martin Fackler, MD: pages 32 - 37; Vol. 1, No. 3 Fall 1992, IWBA Wound Ballistics Review
    2.) "Performance of the Winchester 9mm 147 Grain Subsonic Jacketed Hollow Point Bullet in Human Tissue and Tissue Simulant" by Eugene J. Wolberg, Sr. Criminologist, SFPD: pages 10 - 13; Vol. 1, No. 1 Winter 1991, IWBA Wound Ballistics Review

    All available online here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...3pWYVVJeGlGaFE

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