https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....-ends-in-deathOriginally Posted by Suvorov
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....-ends-in-death
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
Crooked cops doing illegal “Training Day” shit is not really relevant to what the actual legal process is or should be.
Crooked cops doing illegal “Training Day” shit is not really relevant to what the actual legal process is or should be.
Also even in the states that have them these “red flag orders” are similar to restraining orders. They have to be served before they have any legal effect and are not search warrants.
The reality is bad enough without tinfoil fantasy about midnight raids. It’s like the gun owner version of the black people who claim cops spend all day looking to murder black people.
Last edited by HCM; 08-10-2019 at 07:16 PM.
Even if the OPs thing is a fantasy, I am still concerned about the guilty until proven innocent part. Can those of you working in areas w/ red flag or similar laws explain how the process works regarding required proof, and also how one proves his innocence please?
Happened in Maryland, don't know if it was a no knock warrant or not.....
https://www.ammoland.com/2018/11/hom...#axzz5wOZJKZsF
Bottom line is do you trust the government enough to enforce this without abuse? I remember hearing how the Patriot Act was going to be set up with protections to keep Americans from being spied on. We saw how well that worked out. Plus there is the added factor of not evening knowing if red flags would stop anything. There were plenty of laws broken by the Ohio shooter (Rape lists and kill lists are terroristic threats) that no one prosecuted him on. If they had, he would be a felon and ineligible to have purchased his guns.
From the above it sounds like it was served very early in the morning but apparently they either knocked or made enough noise that the occupant came to the door to find out who was on his doorstep. (After which the cluster ensued.)Police spokesman Jacklyn Davis said officers responded to 103 Linwood Avenue at around 5:15 a.m. to serve an “emergency risk protective order,” also known as the red flag order.
The man answered the door armed with a handgun and a struggle ensued as officers attempted to disarm the man, Davis said.
There's nothing civil about this war.
The limited information provided in the linked article leads me to believe they didn’t serve a warrant at all. It sounds to me like the officers merely attempted to serve the subject the ERPO at his residence.
The police likely knocked on the subject’s door at 5 in the morning and he answered the door holding a pistol. Having a pistol sounds like a reasonable thing to do when strangers knock on your door in the early morning. This incident ended tragically.
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You should probably look into it a bit more before you decide that it's remotely like the bullshit scenario presented in the OP. A cursory amount of research would show you it wasn't a no-knock and why the guy was shot.
Yeah, but that wasn't what got him shot.
He initially put the gun down next to the door, but “became irate” when officers began to serve him with the order, opened the door and picked up the gun again, police said.
“A fight ensued over the gun,” said Sgt. Jacklyn Davis, a police spokeswoman.
One of the officers struggled to take the gun from Willis, and during the struggle the gun fired but did not strike anyone, police said. At that point, the other officer fatally shot Willis, police said.
Curious, what should have the police done?
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
As I recall, the subject answered the door and put his gun down. When told that the officers were to confiscate his gun, he grabbed it and the struggle ensued. The dramatic and frightening photograph in the Ammoland article is not of the Anne Arundel County incident and almost certainly was taken at a training class.
The process in Maryland is initially an ex parte process in which a petitioner goes to the court to present evidence of extreme risk. The respondent (gun owner) would not be present and may well be unaware a petition has been filed. If the petition is granted, an order is issued by the court and served by the police or sheriff. The respondent (gun owner) will have the opportunity to appear in court for a hearing to contest that the validity of the order.
This is similar to how the protective order and peace order processes work. In the case of the protective order, the respondent is often ordered to immediately vacate the home, not to contact the petitioner, and any observed firearms may be seized. Processes such as these, while necessary, can certainly be used by petitioners for nefarious and meddlesome purposes. As stated, police and judicial officials recognize this. We also realize that the process is a pain in the neck for respondents, innocent or not.
The risk to law-abiding gun owners isn't from the intrusive new neighbor described in the original example. The risk comes from the formerly near and dear. An angry spouse or "concerned" parents or children can usually articulate why someone is supposedly an "extreme risk" more effectively than others (who may or may not have standing to petition). The petitioner may or may not be truthful, but the lies may be harder to disprove. For instance, if the first example given, an obvious question that a judge or court commissioner might ask is if the police were called when the respondent was waving his AR-15 around in public and, if not, why not. A blank stare by the petitioner would hopefully not be considered a good answer. A spouse claiming to be threatened with a gun at home is much more credible as the "incident" occurred outside public view and domestic violence victims are notoriously reluctant to report abuse.
I will also note that misdemeanor criminal charges in Maryland can be filed pretty much the same way with no investigation by police or review by the prosecutor.
It probably stands to reason that a certain % of red flag orders are going to inevitably end up with the subject of the order going postal and getting shot ie fighting with an LEO over the gun.
If the red flag order is based on the risk factors that are being detailed out in these laws - a fair number (or vast majority?) are going to be "properly predicated" shall we say, and the subject of it a troubled individual.
That's sort of the point. Intercept the unstable person before they lose it and surprise their family reunion with a slaughter or some such.
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