Stop that shit! Life, liberty and the pursuit of our rights

[Robinson]

If we excuse the extreme left and the extreme right, I'd say the remaining American people have tried every means available to move our government to end its tyrannical methods. If we revisit the events that led to the declaration of independence and revolutionary war, our government has far exceeded the tyranny that caused those rebels to say enough is enough.

I'd say working to garner grass roots support for things like rallies and marches is a necessary step. Any hope of righting the ship will involve large public support, and in fact that is where the real battleground is at this point. Public opinion is a larger obstacle to freedom than outright government abuse of power.

Contacting elected representatives to let opinions be known is a no-brainer, and most of us on this forum have probably already been doing that.

A healthy, robust NRA (or similar organization) is needed. That's why the turmoil and apparent corruption within the NRA is such bad news.

Civil disobedience is something each individual needs to consider and weigh and act on or not, based on his/her own conscience. It may have nothing to do with violence.

As far as our government exceeding the tyranny the British held over the Colonists, you are referring to things such as the following?

* The Boston Massacre
* No representation within the governing body
* Excessive taxes and trade regulations (see the immediately preceding point)
* A thoroughly corrupt justice system at every level
* Officials who committed crimes being removed and tried on foreign soil without witnesses
* Having federal troops quartered in homes with or without consent
* Unfettered search and seizure of homes, businesses, and possessions beyond the legal limits of "Writs of Assistance"

Seriously?

[Ronin_Jedi]

As I've stated many times, maybe even on this forum, the Secondment Amendment is just that, an amendment. As such, it can be amended and even dropped in its entirety.

Here's one media site calling for just that scenario:

https://www.thenation.com/article/re...t-gun-control/


And if we, as a nation, do not get our act together on the many issues that divide US, and issues often used as the basis of many of these killings (single person but especially mass murders/terrorism), we can kiss the 2A goodbye.

Organizations on both sides of the aisle need to work on changing people's mindset of intolerance towards those with differing opinions. It's not a Republican problem to fix or a Democratic problem. It is not a Conservative problem or a Leftist (or as some would gave it, Liberal) problem.

Doesn't matter what your race, religion, socio-economic status, sexual ID or orientation is, or what. We pulled together for WWII and after 9/11. We can do it again. We need to stop debasing each other and start reaching out for dialogue.

(Liberal thinking is what birthed the Declaration of Independence. Because a "conservative" thought would never allow you contemplating such a thing.)


(For the record, I am a gun owner and have been for years (except when living in countries that ban them). I fully understand why we have the 2A and fully support the need to keep it. After all, WE THE PEOPLE ARE THE MILITIA; the last line of defence for our freedom and our country. )

Apologies for the rant and if I derailed this discussion in any way.

Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk

[Duelist]

I'd say working to garner grass roots support for things like rallies and marches is a necessary step. Any hope of righting the ship will involve large public support, and in fact that is where the real battleground is at this point. Public opinion is a larger obstacle to freedom than outright government abuse of power.

Contacting elected representatives to let opinions be known is a no-brainer, and most of us on this forum have probably already been doing that.

A healthy, robust NRA (or similar organization) is needed. That's why the turmoil and apparent corruption within the NRA is such bad news.

Civil disobedience is something each individual needs to consider and weigh and act on or not, based on his/her own conscience. It may have nothing to do with violence.

As far as our government exceeding the tyranny the British held over the Colonists, you are referring to things such as the following?

* The Boston Massacre
* No representation within the governing body
* Excessive taxes and trade regulations (see the immediately preceding point)
* A thoroughly corrupt justice system at every level
* Officials who committed crimes being removed and tried on foreign soil without witnesses
* Having federal troops quartered in homes with or without consent
* Unfettered search and seizure of homes, businesses, and possessions beyond the legal limits of "Writs of Assistance"

Seriously?

Let us not forget:

*armed bands of government troops roaming the countryside confiscating and destroying arms and ammunition owned by both private citizens and local law enforcement. Which was the causus belli that actually got the shooting part started.

[Joe in PNG]

Let us not forget:

*armed bands of government troops roaming the countryside confiscating and destroying arms and ammunition owned by both private citizens and local law enforcement. Which was the causus belli that actually got the shooting part started.

The worst part is that all these things were done by a group that was increasingly seen as foreigners by the native born Americans.
People can usually tolerate home grown oppression, but can't abide it if some turkey from some other country is doing it.

[Old Man Winter]

As far as our government exceeding the tyranny the British held over the Colonists, you are referring to things such as the following?

* The Boston Massacre
* No representation within the governing body
* Excessive taxes and trade regulations (see the immediately preceding point)
* A thoroughly corrupt justice system at every level
* Officials who committed crimes being removed and tried on foreign soil without witnesses
* Having federal troops quartered in homes with or without consent
* Unfettered search and seizure of homes, businesses, and possessions beyond the legal limits of "Writs of Assistance"

Seriously?

* The Boston Massacre

US Government + Native Americans > the Boston Massacre.

* No representation within the governing body

While we may elect representatives it would be easy to argue we have no representation within our governing body.

* Excessive taxes and trade regulations (see the immediately preceding point)

We’re taxed on so many levels it’s unbelievable. We have no real say in the matter which goes back to the debate of representation in the governing body. Trade regulations are equally out of control.

* A thoroughly corrupt justice system at every level

political corruption: dishonesty, unscrupulousness, double-dealing, fraud, fraudulence, misconduct, crime, criminality, wrongdoing; bribery, venality, extortion, profiteering, payola; informal graft, grift, crookedness, sleaze. ANTONYMS honesty.

Show me a level of our justice system where there hasn’t been repeated corruption.

Bad apple officers?
Activist prosecutors and judges?
Attorney General’s?
Justice department abuses against a presidential candidate and president elect?
FISA court abuses?
Special counsel abuses?

It would be interesting to see a full listing of incidents of corruption within our justice system.

* Officials who committed crimes being removed and tried on foreign soil without witnesses

Can’t answer that one but we certainly have officials who’ve committed crimes that haven’t been brought to prosecution.

* Having federal troops quartered in homes with or without consent

Probably no third amendment violations in recent memory.

* Unfettered search and seizure of homes, businesses, and possessions beyond the legal limits of "Writs of Assistance"

Watertown, MA after the Boston marathon bombing?
Court cases are impacted by fourth amendment violations?
Need for exclusionary rule on top of fourth amendment?
NSA helping other government agencies monitor US citizens when they didn’t have evidence to obtain warrants.
Present day NSA?

It would be interesting to see a full listing of fourth amendment violations that have occurred in this country.

[Robinson]

@36trap - I understand your position. The U.S. government, along with various state and local governments, is guilty of corruption and violating citizens' rights. But at the time of the Revolution it was standard operating procedure.

In most court cases today, due process is followed. Perhaps not all, but most.

We still have a representative democratic republic. It's dysfunctional but still mostly operates according to law. Mostly.

Nobody likes paying taxes. Or over-regulation. Some regulations have been rolled back in recent years.

The government sticks its nose where it doesn't belong. We all know that. But the 'Unfettered search and seizure of homes, businesses, and possessions beyond the legal limits of "Writs of Assistance"' I mentioned was much worse. It was physical search and confiscation with bogus or no warrants, and a legal system that supported the practice all day every day.

There is a lot to be pissed about at present. It's not equivalent to the state of things at the time of the Revolution in my opinion.

I won't quote the whole reference, but we are "at that awkward stage". It isn't time. Hopefully it never will be.

[mc1911]

As I've stated many times, maybe even on this forum, the Secondment Amendment is just that, an amendment. As such, it can be amended and even dropped in its entirety.

Here's one media site calling for just that scenario:

https://www.thenation.com/article/re...t-gun-control/


And if we, as a nation, do not get our act together on the many issues that divide US, and issues often used as the basis of many of these killings (single person but especially mass murders/terrorism), we can kiss the 2A goodbye.

Organizations on both sides of the aisle need to work on changing people's mindset of intolerance towards those with differing opinions. It's not a Republican problem to fix or a Democratic problem. It is not a Conservative problem or a Leftist (or as some would gave it, Liberal) problem.

Doesn't matter what your race, religion, socio-economic status, sexual ID or orientation is, or what. We pulled together for WWII and after 9/11. We can do it again. We need to stop debasing each other and start reaching out for dialogue.

(Liberal thinking is what birthed the Declaration of Independence. Because a "conservative" thought would never allow you contemplating such a thing.)


(For the record, I am a gun owner and have been for years (except when living in countries that ban them). I fully understand why we have the 2A and fully support the need to keep it. After all, WE THE PEOPLE ARE THE MILITIA; the last line of defence for our freedom and our country. )

Apologies for the rant and if I derailed this discussion in any way.

Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk

Technically, the amendment concept you state is not inaccurate. However, it bears keeping in mind that the Constitution was only ratified by the states based on the contingency that the Bill of Rights would soon be hot off the presses. If we start repealing them, we cut at the legitimacy of the whole ball of wax.

With regards to liberal thinking birthing the Declaration, there is a big difference between classical liberalism and the crackpot crap called liberalism today.

[fixer]

Great Colion video.

[GyroF-16]

Great Colion video.

Concur.

Then we got derailed around post 7 or 8....

[RevolverRob]

As I've stated many times, maybe even on this forum, the Secondment Amendment is just that, an amendment. As such, it can be amended and even dropped in its entirety.

Here's one media site calling for just that scenario:

https://www.thenation.com/article/re...t-gun-control/


And if we, as a nation, do not get our act together on the many issues that divide US, and issues often used as the basis of many of these killings (single person but especially mass murders/terrorism), we can kiss the 2A goodbye.

It is true, the amendment is an amendment.

It is also true, that an amendment is an incredibly difficult thing to pass. According to Senate.gov - "Approximately 11,770 measures have been proposed to amend the Constitution from 1789 through January 3, 2019."

27 of those Amendments have passed. And we'll note that the first ten of those were the Bill of Rights.

Requiring 2/3rds of the House and the Senate + 3/4s of states to ratify an amendment, makes the formal repeal of the 2nd Amendment largely a pipe dream for idiots. Or even a Constitutional Convention would still not allow this to occur.

Sure it could happen, and if we are not vigilant it will happen. But chances of us waking up tomorrow to finding the 28th Amendment to repeal the 2nd are zero. Even if such an amendment passed through Congress, it would never gain the 3/4ths state majority (38 states) needed, because 40 of our current 50 states have state constitutions that guarantee the rights of their citizens to bear arms. Ratifying a US Constitutional Amendment that violates their state Constitutions is a very tricky legal precedent. Not something that simply could happen either over night nor probably at all.

Which is why making sure the rights are properly protected at the state level is so critical. State level constitutional changes that remove the right to bear arms should be viewed as a harbinger of a Federal constitutional amendment to do the same.

___

If folks think that ballot boxes aren't working, you're reading too much rhetoric. Seriously, dial it back. Take a little vacation to Venezuela, Mexico, South Africa and see how the other half lives. We aren't even close to this. Which does not mean I am suggesting complacency, I am not. But if you really think that the U.S. is spinning around the drain then your perspective needs adjusting.