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Thread: GSSF Lessons Learned

  1. #21
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
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    #SlowLearnerRequiringGibbsHeadslaps

    I shot the G21 in an IDPA match last weekend; while not out-and-out disasterous, and no DQs or any other egregious penalties incurred, my performance was sub-par, particularly compared to how I shot with my P320 X-Carry with a RDS the previous weekend.

    I had a good daily dryfire program leading up to the match. Particularly exasperating was my inability to knock down a pair of steel plates some 20-30 yards out, with multiple futile shots expended in the effort.

    The next stage, after I shot the stage, I reconfirmed zero. Zero was fine, but shooter had a tendency to shoot low-doubtlessly due to poor trigger control/too hasty shooting/poor sight picture/all of the above. Once I tightened things up, POA/POI zero confirmed, but my score was pretty much toarched by that point for the day.

    Again, my G21 is a Gen 3, running with Warren/Sevigny Carry sights, a Waren Grip Asist Sleeve, a dot connector, and a coil trigger spring. Thinking dire thoughts, musing on various hardware solutions, I instead (at the advice of a friend and coach) went to a square range and practiced as the gun is.

    Hmmm; amazingly enough, when I concentrate on trigger control and sight picture, the center of the target develops one ragged hole, repeatable at various distances. I also utilized the technique of placing my support hand's pinky finger on the front face of the magazine baseplate pad, immediately beneath the receiver frontstrap, which semed to provide more control, both in the vertical and horizontal recoil torque planes.

    The Gibbs headslap comes from not live firing to confirm and refamiliarize before serious use, particularly after a protracted period of non-use on the platform. We have met the enemy and it is us.....I can probably get away with it with 9mm, but not with a .45 ACP or .40 platform.

    While the fact is that I simply don't achieve the immediate natural index with my G21 that I do with my HK P30L and VP40, I can overcome that with practice-but it has to be a mix of dry- and live-fire. Lesson learned.

    Best, Jon

    No live animal were killed in the process of this response, nor were any discretionary dollars or futile efforts spent on chasing wil-'o-the wisp hardware solutions ...

  2. #22
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
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    Nice update-I just qualified with the G21. Not that the qualification course was unduly difficult, but what was interesting to me was that I actually qualified on it 1 point better than with my G19 (but I did 2 points better with my Gen4 G22-go figure....)(I wanted to qualify with all three Glocks for duty carry; the comparison was interesting as well).

    The only recent hardware modification was add a Warren Grip Assist Sleeve, and, after some use, to cut down the fin on the sleeve by about 50% at the example and suggestion of an exceptionally highly qualified and proficient user of the Warren sleeve. The cut-down fin provided the same grip positioning effect, but with reduced protrusion and bulk, reducing drag on draw and making it slightly more comfortable. I'm running a similar cut-down Grip Assist on my Gen4 G22, and a segment of mountian bike innertube on my Gen 3 G17. My thought is that the sleeve could assist in both support hand positioning as well as with some recoil force management benefit. My Gen 3 G19 remains without any such grip enhancements.



    Best, Jon
    Last edited by JonInWA; 02-22-2021 at 08:55 AM.

  3. #23
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
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    I just shot the Port Townsend GSSF match with the G21. My first return to GSSF after a hiatus in 2020 due to COVID-19. This time, in addition to my dry-fire practice regimen, I used the G21 in a club IDPA match two weeks previously. I didn't score too well in the IDPA match, but it was a great shake-down cruise, highlighting to me exactly what I needed to concentrate on (trigger control-specifically, not hammering on the trigger).

    At the GSSF match, I exclusively shot the G21 in both divisions I competed in Guardian and Heavy Metal) and shot my best match with the G21 in years. My one bobble was on the plates where in 1 string of fire, I resorted to hammering on the trigger, with predictable results (2 plates left up...). I quickly corrected on the next string-problem eliminated, all plates decimated. Ammunition used was predominantly Sellier & Bellot 230 gr ball, with 1 box of Federal Champion Brass also used. The holster used was my Vega T.A.C.S Universal, which worked well in stably holding the G21 with the slide jacked back as required by GSSF if carrying the gun holstered during the match, and it worked nicely apres match holding my carry G19.

    There's still considerable room for improvement; I had too many "D" hits (i.e., shooting slightly low) indicating that while my triggger control is getting better, it's still not quite there, and, obviously, my time-I need to refine triggger control, and then pick up the pace.

    I'm interested in the forum's thoughts about letting the trigger go fully forward versus shooting from the reset point.

    A I had a good match, made all the better by shooting it with a long-time friend-we had a nice drive to and from the match, and a good time at the match where I reconnected with some long-time GSSF shooting acquaintences. The match was well run, which was nice, as things flowed well with little back-up at each stage. Attendance seemed a little light, which is probably collateral damage from the COVID-19 ammunition shortage.

    Best, Jon

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by JonInWA View Post
    I'm interested in the forum's thoughts about letting the trigger go fully forward versus shooting from the reset point.

    Best, Jon
    Are you talking 'press-flip-press' or something like the 'aim-slack-squeeze' some folks adopt with the Glock Trigger when you say trigger fully forward?

    I think there are several ways to look at it, if one has an open mind about it. I'm interested in hearing the views of others in this particular thread.
    Adding nothing to the conversation since 2015....

  5. #25
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    Are you talking 'press-flip-press' or something like the 'aim-slack-squeeze' some folks adopt with the Glock Trigger when you say trigger fully forward?

    I think there are several ways to look at it, if one has an open mind about it. I'm interested in hearing the views of others in this particular thread.
    For me, currently it's more along the lines of "Aim, slack, squeeze." For years I'd been a proponent of shooting off the reset point, "Squeeze, slight movemenet forward to click, pull" but whlle that works from a gaming standpoint, I just don't think it plays out well in actual tactical situations (I'm very interested to hear other comments on this), so I've reverted to "Squeeze, finger follow trigger fully forward, squeeze."

    Glocks are great. But there's a huge difference in gun games and actual tactical use, and real-world threat management, and in my opinion the Glock trigger already is somewhat pushing the threat management envelope as it is. Currently I'm qualified on my G17, G19, G21 and G22 Glock-wise, so I tend to revert/prefer/defer to tactically relevant techniques (as opposed to more purely gamer techniques), and appropriately build up desirable muscle memories.

    Shooting off the reset, involving less finger movement, might increase my follow-up /repetitive shot speeds, and somewhat decrease my tendency to shoot low, but it probably would be a bit of a crutch, where really what I need to continue to do is build up on my trigger control techniques and follow-up.

    Again, as throughout this thread, all thoughts and constructive criticism welcome.

    Best, Jon

  6. #26
    My thoughts are somewhat biased, I began as an officer and an instructor during the revolver era. Within five years LE agencies in my state were making the transition to the DA/SA pistols. We were influenced by the guys at the S&W Academy in those days and adopted that they were teaching for our auto-transition courses - release to reset and press - for transition and all subsequent shoots, maintaining contact with the trigger.

    So after about 25 years of teaching that way I finally get off to Rogers Shooting School and spent the first half of my week there miserably trying to adopt his methodology. I wasn't on the back row, but I was way further back than my ego wanted me to be, so I switched back to reset and settled in about mid-group where my ego felt comfortable.

    I was totally impressed by the course but realized that considering the limited time, staff, and rounds we had available for firearms training changing our program from release to reset-press to press-flip-press would have done more harm than good to our student officers. HCM said it best - we were training police officers, not gunfighters.

    They are obviously many folks who shoot incredibly fast and incredibly accurately letting the trigger come full travel forward and then flipping back through for the next shot. Invariably these are folks who spend a lot of time in both live and dry fire and have developed to the point they are essentially immune to the effects of noise and recoil when they shoot. (Rogers told us the best way to learn his method was with a .22)

    Just my observations.
    Adding nothing to the conversation since 2015....

  7. #27
    Focus JCN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    My thoughts are somewhat biased, I began as an officer and an instructor during the revolver era. Within five years LE agencies in my state were making the transition to the DA/SA pistols. We were influenced by the guys at the S&W Academy in those days and adopted that they were teaching for our auto-transition courses - release to reset and press - for transition and all subsequent shoots, maintaining contact with the trigger.

    So after about 25 years of teaching that way I finally get off to Rogers Shooting School and spent the first half of my week there miserably trying to adopt his methodology. I wasn't on the back row, but I was way further back than my ego wanted me to be, so I switched back to reset and settled in about mid-group where my ego felt comfortable.

    I was totally impressed by the course but realized that considering the limited time, staff, and rounds we had available for firearms training changing our program from release to reset-press to press-flip-press would have done more harm than good to our student officers. HCM said it best - we were training police officers, not gunfighters.

    They are obviously many folks who shoot incredibly fast and incredibly accurately letting the trigger come full travel forward and then flipping back through for the next shot. Invariably these are folks who spend a lot of time in both live and dry fire and have developed to the point they are essentially immune to the effects of noise and recoil when they shoot. (Rogers told us the best way to learn his method was with a .22)

    Just my observations.
    I think those are incredibly astute observations and the great thing youíre noticing is that there is a real, non-optimal limitation to classes en masse as opposed to individual coaching.

    I think the full release trigger press and release is very trigger and gun action dependent.

    I could and might do it on a SA gun like a 1911 where itís a short pull and short release.

    I donít and wouldnít do it on a DASA gun because you still have a lot of safety margin of reset without coming off the trigger.

    Striker fire it would depend on the trigger / striker. Maybe I would with an aftermarket Glock but not with a stock P365.

    With a DA revolver I probably would to prevent short stroking when capacity is already limited.

    What is the more important commonality, IMO?

    Giving enough reset margin motion with your trigger finger.

    In all of those cases, Iím giving the same 7-10mm reset marginÖ regardless of the trigger mechanism.

    So sometimes my finger is off (SAO) and sometimes itís not (DASA).

    IMO teaching the same reset trigger press for differing mechanisms of action is overly simplistic and not optimal.

    Good on you for not taking it as gospel and interpreting it in your context.

    @JCS might appreciate this discussion so tagging him here.

  8. #28
    I haven't read each page so I apologize if I've missed this, but had a question related to GSSF. Are there any benefits to be gained from competing in GSSF indoor matches for someone who competes primarily in Steel Challenge? I have an indoor match pretty close to me that is very convenient, but wasn't sure if it is worth competing in. Primarily just curious if indoor GSSF develops or tests any skills that may be lacking in SCSA.
    Last edited by Kirk; 08-05-2021 at 08:46 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk View Post
    I haven't read each page so I apologize if I've missed this, but had a question related to GSSF. Are there any benefits to be gained from competing in GSSF indoor matches for someone who competes primarily in Steel Challenge? I have an indoor match pretty close to me that is very convenient, but wasn't sure if it is worth competing in. Primarily just curious if indoor GSSF develops or tests any skills that may be lacking in SCSA.
    GSSF indoor matches are shot on a single target per string, so no transitions. Emphasis is on precision with moderate time pressure, generally 10 rounds in 15 seconds. You could make it what you want.

    You could also google 'GSSF Indoor Matches.'
    Adding nothing to the conversation since 2015....

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    GSSF indoor matches are shot on a single target per string, so no transitions. Emphasis is on precision with moderate time pressure, generally 10 rounds in 15 seconds. You could make it what you want.

    You could also google 'GSSF Indoor Matches.'
    I appreciate the response! I was somewhat familiar with the format but most of the dudes I know who shoot GSSF exclusively shoot the outdoor matches. I was curious if anyone here had shot them much and found them to be decent matches since the local matches are super convenient for me and they seem to be a pretty quick match. If I do as well as I think I should be able to freestyle (I do a lot of accuracy work), it might be a fun match to shoot SHO to work those skills. Anyway, I think I'm going to give it a try

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