Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: GSSF Lessons Learned

  1. #1
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Auburn, WA

    GSSF Lessons Learned

    Last weekend, I had a chance to shoot my one GSSF match of the year, at Port Townsend, WA. GSSF matches are not dynamic-they're all shot standing still, gun drawn at low ready, and the stages are pre-determined (albeit with some minor variations allowed, but skill-set and configuration-wise, they're essentially the same).

    I've shot GSSF matches for some 14 years; in the past, especially before I got significantly involved with IDPA, I would shoot 3-4 GSSF matches a year, and had gotten pretty grooved in performance-wise. Also prior to my IDPA involvement, my primary pistol competition venue was steel plate competitions, which is a third of a GSSF match, as out of the 3 GSSF stages per division, one is the steel plate stage. I've found GSSF to be a great venue for measuring certain performance criteria with my Glocks over a multi-year period, plus I've won some great swag over the years from GSSF, including 2 Glocks previously.

    Historically, my best performing Glocks in all venues have been my G17 and G19, but I've regularly competed with my G21-but generally only in GSSF for one division.

    I usually extensively dryfire practice, using a miniaturized set of GSSF targest, enabling me to recreate each individual GSSF stage.

    In the past several years, I've been concentrating with near exclusivity on my Beretta 92D DAO and HK P30L V1.5 LEM. This year, I did do a training course with my Gen4 G22, and used my G19 in an IDPA match a week prior to the GSF match.

    Huge lesson learned: You simply can't expect a pure dryfire program to provide sufficient match preparation without a concurrent live-fire program-which I painfully realized with my G21 in .45 ACP in last weekend's GSSF match...

    The recoil intensity and force is both significantly greater and different then 9mm characteristics (I compete with factory full-power loadings; for my G19 and G17, I used American Eagle 124 gr ball, for the G21, Sellier & Bellot 230 gr ball). My other decision of questionable merit (hindsight being 20-20) was to go with a NY1 trigger spring in conjunction with a dot connector in the G21. The G19 and G17 both utilized a coil trigger spring, the G19 with a dot connector, the G17 with a standard connnector.

    While I like the dot connector in the G21, the NY1 was not a good decision for me, especially when I was concurrently competing with other Glocks using the coil trigger spring. The upshot was that the heavier triggerpull, and the inherent NY1 triggerpull characteristics had me being thrown by the heavier pull and break point, an consistantly shooting low, and then sometimes disastrously overcompensating sight picture wise with the G21 (which has great sights-a set of Warren/Sevigny Carry sights, with the front sight blade painted bright red).

    Clearly, I needed two things to have been done well prior to the match:

    1. Incorporation of .45 ACP livefiring and/or competition use of the G21, particularly with the 230 gr Sellier & Bellot ammunition used;

    2. Objectively weighting and quantifiably assessing the merits of the NY1 and coil trigger spring set up for me in that particular gun.

    Subsequent to the match, I've already switched the trigger spring back to the OEM coil trigger spring. Now I need to re-familiarize and re-qualify with the gun as equipped, and then make the determination if I can be credibly effectively with the G21. If not, I may well sell it, to a friend who's desired mine for years.

    Objective decisions are sometimes difficult to execute. My G21 is a Gen3, and has been mechanically a superb, flawless performer over the years, so I have some history and emotional investment in the gun. However, the reality is that I simply had not shot it in approximately 2 years, so now I need to reassess in several areas-how well I can shoot it with the cartridges chosen for match/duty/concealed carry/home defense, and if I'm willing to dedicate the time and resources necessary to more regularly shoot it to maintain acceptable competence.

    If either decision area is a no-go, then I probably need to divest myself of it, and spend the proceeds on the platforms that I have greater competence with, and with the concurrent willingness to dedicate the necessary resources to establish and maintain base-line performance with.

    Best, Jon

  2. #2
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Gaming In The Streets
    Good observations, Jon. FWIW, every time I have come away from trying any of the NY trigger springs in combination with any of the allowed OEM connectors, my feeling is that while there are other reasons one might choose to use a NY spring in a Glock, more accurate shooting (than with other OEM configurations) is not among them. Others mileage may vary, but for me it only detracts from the accuracy/time composite.
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
    Lord of the Food Court
    http://www.gabewhitetraining.com

  3. #3
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Rochester Hills, MI
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_White View Post
    Good observations, Jon. FWIW, every time I have come away from trying any of the NY trigger springs in combination with any of the allowed OEM connectors, my feeling is that while there are other reasons one might choose to use a NY spring in a Glock, more accurate shooting (than with other OEM configurations) is not among them. Others mileage may vary, but for me it only detracts from the accuracy/time composite.
    Agreed. Iím a huge fan of the stock spring and minus connector on all of my Glocks.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #4
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Auburn, WA
    Several years ago, I experimented for one season with a NY2 in the G21, which internet rumor would have one believe that two men and a boy are necessary to effect the trigger pull, and the only reason it exists at all is because of draconian, overly concerned LEO administrators of certain New York departments that were coming off revolvers to Glocks. While the administrator part may be accurate, I actually found the NY2 to be interesting, in that it did in fact approximate somewhat of a revolver-like triggerpull in the G21.

    With the NY2 in the G21, my GSSF Heavy Metal score was actually BETTER than with the NY1. But as I recall, I was coming off a period where I had been using revolvers. Also, while I somewhat surprisingly performed semi-decently with the NY2, I remember that after completing 3 of the 4 Glock The Plates runs, my trigger finger was pretty tired, and my time for the fourth run increased significantly, so I decided to switch it out, initially going with the NY1 and then to the OEM coil spring, and then, before this year's match, to the NY2. I didn't perceive all that much difference between the NY1 and NY2 pull weight wise per se, and in comparing my 2017 score where I performed semi-decently with the NY2 (compared to this year's fur-ball with the NY1), when I look at my G21/NY2 scores compared to my G17/coil spring scores that year, I shot the G17 SIGNIFICANTLY better than the G21, to the tune of 100 points better in both divisions where I shot my G17.

    While not overly onerous, my thoughts are that the G21 (at least my Gen 3 "big butt"/non-SF G21) is inherently a bit more difficult shoot, and that's before factoring in the recoil characteristics of the .45 ACP cartridge with factory full house standard pressure loads. As Mr._White has astutely pointed out, and especially regarding the larger-framed G21 for me, the NY springs are more of hindrance, especially, somewhat oddly, with the NY1 compared to the NY2 for me. The NY2 is clearly more revolver-like, which for me is not necessarily a bad thing (especially in conjunction with or immediately subsequent to a period of revolver concentration), while my thoughts are the NY1 are neither fish nor foul, and unduly complicates things for me with its differentiated trigger pull characteristics both inherently and in conjunction with using Glocks with the coil trigger spring.

    In the next week or so, I hope to spend some range time with the G21 with its re-installed OEM coil trigger spring. I do like it with the dot connector, which while providing a slightly lighter triggerpull than the standard connector in a Gen 3 Glock, is still reasonably heavy enough for duty/carry use.

    Best, Jon
    Last edited by JonInWA; 08-06-2019 at 01:22 PM.

  5. #5
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Auburn, WA
    Quote Originally Posted by JonInWA View Post
    Several years ago, I experimented for one season with a NY2 in the G21, which internet rumor would have one believe that two men and a boy are necessary to effect the trigger pull, and the only reason it exists at all is because of draconian, overly concerned LEO administrators of certain New York departments that were coming off revolvers to Glocks. While the administrator part may be accurate, I actually found the NY2 to be interesting, in that it did in fact approximate somewhat of a revolver-like triggerpull in the G21.

    With the NY2 in the G21, my GSSF Heavy Metal score was actually BETTER than with the NY1. But as I recall, I was coming off a period where I had been using revolvers. Also, while I somewhat surprisingly performed semi-decently with the NY2, I remember that after completing 3 of the 4 Glock The Plates runs, my trigger finger was pretty tired, and my time for the fourth run increased significantly, so I decided to switch it out, initially going with the NY1 and then to the OEM coil spring, and then, before this year's match, to the NY2. I didn't perceive all that much difference between the NY1 and NY2 pull weight wise per se, and in comparing my 2017 score where I performed semi-decently with the NY2 (compared to this year's fur-ball with the NY1), when I look at my G21/NY2 scores compared to my G17/coil spring scores that year, I shot the G17 SIGNIFICANTLY better than the G21, to the tune of 100 points better in both divisions where I shot my G17.

    While not overly onerous, my thoughts are that the G21 (at least my Gen 3 "big butt"/non-SF G21) is inherently a bit more difficult shoot, and that's before factoring in the recoil characteristics of the .45 ACP cartridge with factory full house standard pressure loads. As Mr._White has astutely pointed out, and especially regarding the larger-framed G21 for me, the NY springs are more of hindrance, especially, somewhat oddly, with the NY1 compared to the NY2 for me. The NY2 is clearly more revolver-like, which for me is not necessarily a bad thing (especially in conjunction with or immediately subsequent to a period of revolver concentration), while my thoughts are the NY1 are neither fish nor foul, and unduly complicates things for me with its differentiated trigger pull characteristics both inherently and in conjunction with using Glocks with the coil trigger spring.

    In the next week or so, I hope to spend some range time with the G21 with its re-installed OEM coil trigger spring. I do like it with the dot connector, which while providing a slightly lighter triggerpull than the standard connector in a Gen 3 Glock, is still reasonably heavy enough for duty/carry use.

    Best, Jon
    In re-reading this (of course after the editing time expiration) I realized that I'd screwed up the sequence of events regarding my G21 trigger spring saga-Here's the JonInWA restatement of the second paragraph:

    Original setup: OEM coil trigger spring, standard connector

    First change: OEM coil trigger spring, dot connector

    Second change NY2 (orange, heavy) spring, dot connector

    Third change: OEM coil trigger spring, dot connector

    Fourth change: NY1 (olive) spring, dot connector

    Current setup: OEM coil trigger spring, dot connector.

    Whew. I'm dizzy....

    Other G21 components: Glock extended slide release, Pierce butt plug, Warren/Sevigny Carry sights, segment of mountain bike innertube over receiver grip area for additional grip traction

    Best, Jon
    Last edited by JonInWA; 08-06-2019 at 05:38 PM.

  6. #6
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Auburn, WA
    Went to a square range, and commenced with examination and solution. My initial shooting was nicely centered, but low. Switching to a more deliberate (at least initially) proper rolling triggerpull resulted in exceptionally accurate center of mass POA/POI.

    Seems I was doing a bit of the "grab and yank" sloppy triggerpull, pulling my shots low, and then attempting to effect sight compensation (as opposed to performing a proper triggerpull) at the GSSF match.

    Good practice, and it only took me 30 rounds to properly diagnose, and 20 more to verify my solution. Going back to fundamentals, amazingly enough, isn't a bad thing at all...

    Now for more practice, and in a September IDPA match I'll see how things practically bear fruit.

    Best, Jon

  7. #7
    Site Supporter ubervic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Northern VA
    Excellent summary.

    Sorry to be daft here, but I'm not understanding why you're still wanting to run the G21 vs 9mm versions.

  8. #8
    Member SecondsCount's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Utah, USA
    I'm no pro but here is the way I look at it- What will get me to first place? Is it sights, triggers, or buying a lot of ammo and spending QUALITY time at the range improving my shooting to get me there. If you created a pie chart of those items, I guarantee that practice would cover about 80% of the chart.

    If there was one thing that I learned from TLG, it was to push yourself past the limit of accuracy and then dial it down a little. Find the wall and try to break through it. If you are feeling like your accuracy is really starting to improve then increase speed. A shot timer is a great tool for this, even on an indoor range.
    -Seconds Count. Misses Don't-

  9. #9
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Auburn, WA
    Quote Originally Posted by ubervic View Post
    Excellent summary.

    Sorry to be daft here, but I'm not understanding why you're still wanting to run the G21 vs 9mm versions.
    Options, man, options.

    Ok, seriously, from a performance point, you're absolutely correct-I perform better, and mo' betta' easier, with my 9mm G19 and G17. And those are the ones that I tend to concentrate on.

    But, that said, the G21 is still an excellent gun, and the .45 ACP an eminently viable cartridge. And the G21s have a reputation for better than average accuracy; mine, when properly shot by me exemplifies that.

    Another reason is for winter carry; when there's a likelihood of a hollowpoint projectile not opening up and expanding, potentially due to being plugged by multiple layers of clothing, all other things being equal, I find .45 (or .40) to be slightly preferable to 9mm. Probably that presumed .45 ACP advantage has been diminished by 9mm cartridge and bullet improvements, but until I see and empirically experience otherwise, I'll assume that there is still some benefit to .45 ACP in such scenarios.

    And my particular G21 is a Gen 3, and exceptionally well proven, and with the superior finish on top of the Tenifer that Glock was using at the time of its production. Despite thousands of rounds downrange, and being extensively carried, drawn, and re-holstered in kydex holsters, mine still looks almost new. In all my years of use, I've experienced literally one malfunction; a failure to chamber caused by a grossly misshapen and over-sized WWB cartridge's bullet, which certainly can't be counted against the G21. I've also (now) got the fire control system set up the best for me, and I've got a good set of sights on it-Warren Sevigny Carrys. And a nice accumulation of holsters, magazines (and magazine pouches).

    If I can't shoot it decently, especially after a suitable protocol of dry- and live-fire practice, I may re-think my position. I do have a friend who has shot it and wants it waiting in the wings, and I suppose that I could then go with a G19X or G47 in 9mm.

    But for the time being, I'll capitalize on the mechanical accuracy and other innate qualities inherent to my G21 and work on me. A "challenge gun" can force one to re-focus on fundamentals and figuring out how to best work with the tool at hand, which isn't necessarily a bad thing in my book. The techniques I have to master with it should nicely transfer over to other platforms which are intrinsically easier for me to shoot, making me a better shooter both with them and all-around. That's my theory/story, and I'm sticking to it, man (intoned in best Bart Simpson voice, of course).

    Another couple of factors mitigating for keeping the G21 are its capability of being shot in 3 IDPA divisions-SSP, CDP and ESP, and in GSSF for Guardian, Competition and Heavy Metal divisions (and Unlimited, if I simply want to play in as many GSSF divisions as possible).

    And I fully realize that shooting 3 different Glocks in two different calibers with differing fire control components was not my brightest decision in terms of optimizing my GSSF performance in a given match, but I knew that, and deliberately wanted to exercise the three Glocks. In future GSSF matches, if I want to use the G21, the smarter decision would be to use it in all the divisions that I'm shooting, and save the other Glocks for other GSSF matches.

    Best, Jon
    Last edited by JonInWA; 08-20-2019 at 12:25 PM.

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •