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Thread: Center Axis Relock

  1. #1
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    Center Axis Relock

    Is this the pistol version of an AR chickenwing grip, or does it have real world applications? Any training junkies or professionals in the house want to set me straight? Real or fantasy, John Wick is the man.

  2. #2
    Member Wake27's Avatar
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    I have yet to see a recognized instructor even discuss it.


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  3. #3
    Member John Hearne's Avatar
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    Years ago, the NTI had a 360 degree live fire shoothouse. Your runs were recorded and provided to you. When I looked at my runs, in a fairly real world environment, I was in every popular shooting stance as I did my best to use cover. Working a right hand corner - I looked very Weaver-ish. Working a left hand corner, my shooting platform looked like something from a CAR class. Caught flat footed in the middle of the hallway, I ended up in a Modern Iso position. I've never trained in the CAR stance, it just developed organically.
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  4. #4
    Member rsa-otc's Avatar
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    Years ago on the M4Carbine forum CAR came up and while everyone jumped in criticizing it, I remarked that while I did not see using it myself from what was presented (bunch of YouTube videos) I would hold off remarking on it until I had some real face to face time with the founder of the system. Immediately after I posted a forum member from South America PM'd me thanking me for keeping an open mind. According to him he had used CAR for real and found that it worked well for him.

    I never did get a chance to hook up with the founder I believe he has passed away at this point.

    As John remarked sometimes you just naturally find yourself organically in a position much like CAR. ISO, Weaver or any other position are not a one size fits all proposition. If I remember correctly it was remarked in that M4C thread that if you were in a car and had to respond to a threat from behind you most likely will end up in a CAR like position.

    Just as a side note when watching the John Wick movies I thought some of his positions were very CARish. Not that you should use John Wick or Hollywood movies as a training source or example.
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  5. #5
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    Popular on TV, which means it probably isn't very useful in the real world



    Same as the gun he's holding (a Kahr)
    Last edited by Alpha Sierra; 03-01-2019 at 01:49 PM.

  6. #6
    Member John Hearne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsa-otc View Post
    As John remarked sometimes you just naturally find yourself organically in a position much like CAR.
    One of the more useful drills I've seen, I first saw with Jeff Gonazales. Each shooter had an ammo can in front of them. While we worked conventional range drills - draws, reloads, etc. - we had to have one foot on the ammo can. We had to alternate the foot on the can and our body angle relative to the target. We were never supposed to fire from the same position twice. This completely destroyed any reliance on an optimized range shooting platform and emphasized being able to hit no matter what.
    • It's not the odds, it's the stakes.
    • If you aren't dry practicing every week, you're not serious.....
    • "Tache-Psyche Effect - a polite way of saying 'You suck.' " - GG

  7. #7
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    CAR in flim

    I have no experience in this but have heard it praised and violently ridiculed. I figured that it is great for film as the camera can get both the gun and actor's face in the frame with more effect than the "full Sabrina."

  8. #8
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    I think it's worth looking at most "stances" and consider the benefits and negatives of each. I experimented for about a year with CAR years ago now...like before Paul Castle died years ago. The non-shooting ready stance never stuck much with me, but the shooting stance has appeared from time to time as I've done various things.

    I'll put it this way, it works okay to about 5-7 yards if you aren't expecting to fire tiny groups. I never quite got the chicken-wing aspect of the shooting elbow (I'm too ingrained to tuck the elbows in). But the slight cant to the gun never bothered me and especially close you tend to use the alignment of the sights and side of the slide together to aim. I'll also note that years ago, Clint Smith taught me a one hand only technique that also involves canting the gun inboard to about the same degree as CAR does. It's designed to help limit limp wristing and help control recoil. I've always found it very useful.

    I look at CAR and effectively the way it works as something like shooting from a high retention stance with the gun a little further out. It's easy enough to push the gun out into an ISO if you want. In fact, if you want to think about it, CAR is basically the portion of four part draw where the gun is up and the hands come together before the push out. From there you don't push out and you roll the non-shooting hand shoulder forward slightly and you're effectively in CAR. I honestly just don't roll the shoulder forward, instead, I stand usually squared shoulders forward, which then presses out into ISO easily. BTW - if you do roll the shoulder forward and then push-out? You end up in a modified Weaver.

    But it's whatever, you're going to be standing at some odd angle doing something weird anyways. Watch ten minutes of USPSA match footage and I guarantee you, you'll see someone firing shots standing on one foot. Maybe even leaned most of the way over from around cover looking like a gymnast to make a shot. Stances are probably the most arbitrary thing in shooting out there.

    Long and short - CAR is just another thing to use. It seems to work best for me in very tight quarters and when shooting on the move. I've never found it useful beyond maybe 10-yards. It never gives me better than minute of pie-plate accuracy at virtually any distance, nor have I seen it do much better for other folks.
    Last edited by RevolverRob; 03-01-2019 at 03:43 PM.

  9. #9
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    Paul Castle did a two day class for firearms instructors in the national capital region some years ago. He did it free of charge in an admitted marketing strategy of trying to sell his system. He was a decent guy who genuinely believed in his system.

    Looking back, I;n bot sure anything I found useful was really CAR specific. I think most would adopt a CAR stance if engaging at close quarters through the driver's window of a car, especially if the window was closed. Muzzle thumps are certainly effective if the situation is desperate enough to use that level of force, but I don't think you necessarily have to be a CAR practitioner to use that technique.

    Todd Greene once told me that the stance most people shoot from in the real world is happenstance. I think there is real truth to that. I wouldn't use CAR as a primary shooting system, but various techniques are likely to be helpful whether derived from CAR or elsewhere.

  10. #10
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnc36rcpd View Post
    Todd Greene once told me that the stance most people shoot from in the real world is happenstance.
    Leave it to Todd to state so eloquently and plainly the simple reality.

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