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Thread: Pistol vs Rifle Safety Manipulation

  1. #11
    I gotta just be holding my gun weird. Iíve been working dry through my apartment, practice clearing, and Iím fine with the way I clear in a compressed muzzle position safety on until I raise the gun for an engagement. But if Iím aimed in on something, not only does throwing the safety completely destroy my sight picture (even more than taking my finger out of register) but it also pinched the crap out of the meat of my left hand..... Guess thereís more to play with.

  2. #12
    Site Supporter JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TC215 View Post
    I try not to have my gun pointed at anyone while Iím challenging them, if I can help itó though I have done it. Most bad guys arenít afraid of having guns pointed at them anyway.

    If Iím on target, the safety is off. Off target, safety on.
    Interesting. A friend with vast operational experience and the best training the Mil has to offer explained to me that he made his decisions to shoot from ready. As your primary method. Safer if the subject is not to be shot. Better vision and SA in evaluating. When he snapped up on target the safety came off and the dude got shot because the decision was made at ready.
    "I realized all the mindset talk was useless without action and that with action, all the mindset talk was unnecessary." - Mike Pannone

  3. #13
    TLG, DB, and some other dudes had this discussion a few years back during the Dorner manhunt.

    When I ran a 1911, it was sights off/safety on, sights on/safety off with searching done from the ready. I have in the past opined about searching through your sights and how it is a bad idea.

    OP, while your grip may indeed be funny, it may just be a timing issue. If you search from the ready you can do a better assessment of "potentials' (whole body, hands, waistband, area around, demeanor). When you decide to shoot you extend, taking the safety off while the gun is in motion. Every year at quals I catch cheaters during "gun at the ready " portions who insist of boring into the targets through their sights waiting for the signal. They want to get the quickest, most accurate shot off in a situation where the solution is always "shoot". We can shoot faster than we can think a lot of times. Startle reflex exists. Even when challenging someone, I don't want to be startled by a sudden movement or noise, and create one myself. Because the four rules are a layered approach to safety, being ready from the ready helps to ensure any whoopsies don't go into a "no shoot" target. If it were a "shoot" target there should be no whoopsies.

    This will add time, no doubt about it. Do you shoot more? Or challenge more? You are almost always playing catchup in these situations, because you are the good guy and have to let the guy or girl on the other side of your front sight determine your actions. Pure speed takes a back seat to decision making.

    As far as you firearms selection goes, you may need to tweak your grip with a specific peice. My Glock/M&P grip with my support hand is higher and more forward (aggressive) than my 1911 grip. Just the nature of the beast.

    pat
    Last edited by UNM1136; 07-29-2019 at 06:34 AM.

  4. #14
    Member Hi-Point Aficionado's Avatar
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    On target, off safe. Off target, on safe for me. But my most applicable experience is at 3 Gun matches and managing a handful of animals at low ready or outright gunpoint.

    But I take handguns a bit farther. Prefer a hard, positive safety best exemplified by HK's USP series. I decide when it gets clicked off. A soft safety as in a CZ 75 variant has no place in my life. Those tend to natively find themselves off by the time my firing grip is complete. Not having it and sold off an otherwise excellent SP-01 as a result.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    Interesting. A friend with vast operational experience and the best training the Mil has to offer explained to me that he made his decisions to shoot from ready. As your primary method. Safer if the subject is not to be shot. Better vision and SA in evaluating. When he snapped up on target the safety came off and the dude got shot because the decision was made at ready.
    I see officers all the time pointing their guns at people on felony stops, etc. I did it too when I was younger, and really didnít think much about it until I started carrying a 1911 all the time (it was a DA/SA USP before). Itís actually how we were taught. It wasnít until I read some stuff on here that @Dagga Boy wrote several years ago that I changed my ways.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by TC215 View Post
    I see officers all the time pointing their guns at people on felony stops, etc. I did it too when I was younger, and really didnít think much about it until I started carrying a 1911 all the time (it was a DA/SA USP before). Itís actually how we were taught. It wasnít until I read some stuff on here that @Dagga Boy wrote several years ago that I changed my ways.
    I had a similar path. Weíre taught to point/aim at people when weíre doing high risk stops, building clearing, challenging etc. once I started reading stuff from Darrel and Wayne about a trigger that gives more room for error while challenging people, and keeping your gun indexed since the criminals donít care anyways it started a mental shift for me. Now that Iím using a 1911, Iím trying to be even more intentional about how I do things to further increase safety and decision making.

    Bill blowers has a good video about the subject as well:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gJbqwRY6NOA

  7. #17
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    I came up under the Modern Technique carrying a 1911 for several years. Over time, the use of the safety has coalesced to Off Target, On Safe or On Target (& have decided to shoot), Off Safe.

    Was taught that when drawing to a sight picture, with the shoot decision made, pistol with a frame-mounted safety came off safe as the muzzle rotated up onto the target. Drawing the pistol to any other non-shooting position, it stayed on safe until the shoot decision was made. Where this can get challenging (especially in force on force) is when at hard low ready, guard, etc. and the shoot decision looks pretty damn likely.

    Back then what hadn't been settled was when the safety went back on - once the threat was over? After assessing, scanning? Before holstering?

    While I realize not everyone agrees, once the muzzle is coming off the threat, i.e., Bad Guy is down or no longer a lethal force threat, etc., then the safety goes back on. Pistol or carbine or shotgun, I try hard to put it back on before I start looking around/assessing/scanning. That came from Pat McNamara's phrasing and explanations.

    So, if it has an ergonomic thumb safety / selector, it stays On Safe until I've made the shoot decision and the muzzle is On Target; likewise, once there is no longer a need to shoot and the muzzle is going to come Off Target, then I go back On Safe - pistol, carbine, or shotgun.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Default.mp3 View Post
    I have been running cocked and locked H&Ks for my entire shooting history. My hard rule is to safe the pistol whenever I break my grip, i.e., my weak hand palm is no longer in maximal contact with the frame; this does mean that I will occasionally not safe the gun even when off target in square range conditions, as I may not have broken my grip. However, in practical scenarios, I don't see this being an issue, as there's generally no reason to not break the grip once off target. For long guns, my rule is to safe the moment I break cheekweld.

    These rules have confused me before, as I will try to safe a 1911 during a reload, or safe my CZ Evo during a malfunction where the hammer was dropped and then be unable to charge the gun. However, for my H&Ks and ARs, it has worked just fine (although it would be nice to be able to safe the AR even with the hammer dropped, ŗ la HK416).
    Recently Iíve spent quite a bit of time playing with Sig M17 and one of the advantages of its fairly ergonomic safety is that you can safe it during slide lock reloads if you really want to standardize between carbine and pistol.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    Interesting. A friend with vast operational experience and the best training the Mil has to offer explained to me that he made his decisions to shoot from ready. As your primary method. Safer if the subject is not to be shot. Better vision and SA in evaluating. When he snapped up on target the safety came off and the dude got shot because the decision was made at ready.
    +1! This is spot on. Decision to shoot from Ready or from the holster. Regardless, the mechanics are the same.
    "The first quality that is needed is audacity." -Winston Churchill

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