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Thread: EV's Ongoing Zenith Z-5RS Disaster

  1. #1

    EV's Ongoing Zenith Z-5RS Disaster

    (this is largely crossposted from a P&S Buyer Beware thread, but it's the most concise "the story so far" I've written on the subject)

    Do not buy a Zenith MP5 sight unseen. My lust for an MP5 has turned into a money pit hell of my own making, as I've paid over $1,900 for the gun plus a few hundred dollars in optics/accessories, and out of the two months I've owned it, it's only been in my hands for a cumulative total of about a week and a half, and has been in a working condition for about 3 of those days. It's a comedy of errors, bad luck, and worse QC that eerily echoes a similar experience I had as a teenager desperately trying to get an airsoft version of the game gun working.

    I bought a Zenith Z-5RS from Kelly Enterprises in late May after a year of waiting for Brownells to fulfill a backorder that was consistently being pushed out another month every time I called. Chuck was a very helpful (if chatty) seller who informed me that April 2019 imports of the Z-5RS were markedly subpar, often with heavy amounts of rust inside the receiver as they had been sitting on a dock for months (read: since 2018) before Zenith received final go-ahead on importation. In addition to finish/corrosion issues, there were numerous reports of poor magwell fit. He assured me that he had inspected all the 2019 production guns he received with the May shipment and that they exhibited none of the issues that were present in the April batch, so I ordered.

    Since then, I've endured issue after issue with this gun, and when I would ask HKPro or other MP5 groups, I was often either mocked or flat-out ignored because I didn't own a Dakota Tactical or SP5K. The first and most obvious issue was that the recoil lug on the top of the receiver was welded on off-center. While this is still technically "in-spec" according to Zenith's head armorer, it's an annoyance that cannot be fixed. My B&T mount and Aimpoint PRO do sit a bit left of the front sight post as a result.

    The real problems began shortly after. My first range trip had me ready to go - I've wanted an MP5 all my life, and I finally had one. 150 rounds later, I had encountered something in the neighborhood of 50-100(!!!) individual stoppages - I stopped counting in the 20s, but the gun jammed often every other shot, either with a failure to feed, failure to eject, or the casing would fall in front of/behind the hammer, requiring a field strip to correct. I discovered shortly after that the BCG not dropping free of the receiver under its own weight was not in-spec, and that such severe binding was causing the BCG to pinch towards the rear, slowing the carrier down enough that ejection was improbable at best. The gun went to Zenith to have the receiver re-formed and brought back into spec, as well as have the parkerizing touched up on the 3-lug and paint touch ups as needed.

    Zenith fixed the issue with the receiver, retouched the 3-lug, replaced the extractor, touched up the paint, and ran a variety of different ammo types through it to confirm function before returning it to me. Upon receipt, I too tested the gun with about 200 rounds of various 124gr/147gr FMJ ammunition and found no issues, but did note that the touch up paint they had applied seemed uneven and blotchy on one side of the gun. I reached back out to Zenith and they offered to do a full blast/repark/repaint in HK Black Duracoat on their dime. Since I had an SPA/SOLGW Armorer's Course that weekend, I took them up on it and sent the gun back out. While it was in their possession, I also asked for them to inspect and adjust the "triple tree" if necessary based on reports that the cocking tube was making contact with the FSP on newer imports, preventing the barrel from free-floating per HK spec. Zenith confirmed they would do so and added it to the work order.

    The gun came back late last night, and the finish looks fantastic from top to bottom. The cocking tube is perfectly centered (though I'm unsure if it was off before), and while the trigger group and brace now fit much tighter than before and require a punch and mallet to tap on/off, they do fit. I was ready to clock out early today and hit the range to confirm function, but when I pulled the bolt carrier group to lubricate it, I discovered yet another problem - the BCG tail is bent on the side cut for clearance of the receiver block. While I am unsure if this will cause functional issues, it still seems like something obvious enough to the naked eye that it should have been caught the first time the gun went in for repairs, especially given the issues present with the receiver being out of spec and binding the BCG on that trip. There are at least half a dozen other people with the same issue on their Zenith MP5s on one of the FB MP5 groups.

    I've sent another email and call out to Zenith's warranty/armory department and I'm currently waiting to hear whether or not this is an issue worth remedying, and how/if it can be troubleshooted. However, regardless of whether or not this needs to go back a third time, regardless of whether or not Zenith pays for round trip shipping again, my patience and trust in the company has been completely exhausted. Zenith's CS team is polite and patient, but it seems like they do not check the guns for issues that any person with passing knowledge of the MP5 platform could easily spot (not to mention their entire warranty staff appears to leave the office at 2PM EST daily).

    I have already warned them that if this gun has to go back a third time, there will absolutely not be a fourth - just a demand for a refund, which I will either use to buy a competitor's product (Dakota Tactical or Parabellum Combat) or simply dump into an 11.5" AR or night vision. As much as I love the MP5, the feeling does not appear mutual, and Zenith's inability to spot issues with their own product on multiple trips is not at all confidence-inspiring, especially at a $1,700-$1,900 price point.

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  2. #2
    I got an e-mail back from Rob at Zenith this morning. He sent me a number of photos of BCGs from both MKE and HK guns for comparison. All of the MKE carriers had a slight angle to the ejection side carrier leg, and while the HK ones were noticeably straighter, they too had a slight skew. I can't post pictures since the email is technically privileged information, but I did throw them all in photoshop and check them with a properly aligned pair of parallel lines to confirm my eyes aren't just messing with me.

    I'm thinking that since the carrier is cut down to make it semi-only on the ejection side, the removal of material and subsequently lower rigidity is making it easier for these legs to get bent, which is why it seems to be a common issue on MKE guns but not PTRs, which use a full auto profile carrier. The gun still technically works, so I'm going to cross my fingers and hope all goes well, but if I'm correct, it'd explain why Zenith is only replacing the carriers where the leg bend is especially egregious.

    Additionally, Rob sent me a photo of an HK SP5K that had the optics rail recoil lug welded on in basically the exact same position. Guess that one really is in spec if HK themselves is willing to ship a gun that looks like that.

    Zenith's still not off the hook in my eyes - if this gun so much as sneezes at me in the wrong way, I'm going to be on their back again immediately.

  3. #3
    Sorry to hear about the issues you’ve had. You might have just saved me a lot of aggravation in the future. I’ve also always wanted an MP5 and one of the Zenith guns is probably what I would have picked up.
    My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Sorry to hear about the issues you’ve had. You might have just saved me a lot of aggravation in the future. I’ve also always wanted an MP5 and one of the Zenith guns is probably what I would have picked up.
    For what it's worth, the vast majority of Zenith owners don't ever seem to have any issues, same as PTR owners. However, I try to be extremely attentive to detail (that, or my anxiety forces me to be), and as a result I notice problems others may not. As mentioned, not even HK themselves is above having issues with their assembly of MP5s. If you really want a perfect one, there's really only Dakota Tactical, Parabellum Combat, and HKRalphJr, who are building their guns by hand with meticulous care. With the others, you're gambling one way or another - but spending extra money on a different brand over another will nudge the odds more in your favor.

    I'm just glad I ignored my friend's suggestion to get a POF MP5. Even with as many issues as I've had with my Zenith, Zenith has been communicative willing to fix just about everything I ask them to and doing so relatively quickly. Buying a Pakistani gun without an established stateside warranty repair depot would be like pissing in the wind and hoping I'm not downwind of my own stream.

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    US
    One of the local guys bought a PTR and had great luck with it, so he sprung and purchased a Zenith. It has been absolute hell for him too. Absolutely will not feed hollow-points, front sight off center, terrible finishing on the gun, etc.

    Very expensive lesson that he should have gone with Dakota in the first place.

  6. #6
    We just ran roughly 3500 rounds through a SOT converted Zenith in 6 hours at the Guerilla Armament Class Three Jamboree held in Jacksonville NC a few weeks ago with nary a problem other than the addition of lube throughout the day, it did of course have a full auto carrier installed soo...... My personal Zenith MP5 SBR has been trouble free and for several thousand rounds as well both suppressed and not. samples of one each of course. Mine also exited the slight carrier bend but runs fine. Cosmetic issues I don't care about but I know most gun owners do. Hopefully yours will run for you now as if the gun works it is a wonderfully fun toy.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by rcbusmc24 View Post
    We just ran roughly 3500 rounds through a SOT converted Zenith in 6 hours at the Guerilla Armament Class Three Jamboree held in Jacksonville NC a few weeks ago with nary a problem other than the addition of lube throughout the day, it did of course have a full auto carrier installed soo...... My personal Zenith MP5 SBR has been trouble free and for several thousand rounds as well both suppressed and not. samples of one each of course. Mine also exited the slight carrier bend but runs fine. Cosmetic issues I don't care about but I know most gun owners do. Hopefully yours will run for you now as if the gun works it is a wonderfully fun toy.
    Would you mind sharing a photo of the bottom of your carrier from your personal Z-5, taken as squared up as possible from above? I'm trying to figure out if having a perfectly straight carrier is more of an anomaly than a slightly bent one with these semiauto cut carriers.

  8. #8
    Follow up after a couple of range sessions:

    Functionally, the gun now runs properly and is very easy to shoot at 25 yards once zeroed. The offset recoil lug does not appear to be negatively affecting my B&T mount's zero retention after 430 rounds since the refinish. The rear sight may have a burr or similar, as it seems to rise off the weldment on the rear right side when the windage is adjusted right, but it's such a tiny gap it's not something I'm immediately concerned about (the irons zeroed just fine as well even with it present and the Aimpoint mount covers my irons anyway).



    The gun has now run well through 300 rounds of MKE 123gr NATO FMJ, 50 rounds of Fiocchi 115 FMJ, and 50 rounds of suppressed Speer Lawman 147 JFPs in addition to a magazine of HST 147 JHPs. So far, I've had a single hiccup with a magazine (I didn't seat it completely), and one with a failure to feed (an MKE FMJ got hung up on the chamber and needed to be ejected). While my experience with the MP5 is limited, my understanding is that this isn't an uncommon failure, and 1 in 430 isn't bad either.

    I'm not going to declare myself out of the woods yet, nor is Zenith ever going to be fully off the hook, but things seem to be working decently now.

  9. #9
    Member Gray Ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia
    OP, I'm glad your gun is working. I have an SBR's MKE MP5. Mine is pre-Zenith from when they were being imported by American Tactical Imports. It came in as a rifle, and I sent it to Curtis Higgins to have the barrel chopped and threaded and a three-lug adapter installed. It runs fine, and I am happy enough with it.

    I have since purchased an SP5K. In my judgment, there is no comparison between the two in terms of fit, finish, and build quality. One is a third-world contract gun and the other is an H&K.

    I say this only to make the point that you might want to consider what your expectations are for your Zenith/MKE in light of what it is. If you want top shelf, buy an H&K or maybe a Dakota Tactical or something from GhillieBear. Or just be happy with the gun you have now that is working.

  10. #10
    So in addition to deep-seated philosophical and political reasons, there are also practical reasons to avoid the Turkish HK clones.

    I'd rather get the American clones, or pony up for the SP5K..

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