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Thread: Plate Carrier placement/adjustment for maximum protection

  1. #1
    Member Doug MacRay's Avatar
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    Plate Carrier placement/adjustment for maximum protection

    I'm hoping to get some well-informed advice on an issue that seems to be somewhat controversial amongst experienced professionals:

    When wearing body armor (especially plates), how high do you wear the plates on your body?

    My initial .MIL training always taught me to wear the largest plates possible (which was terrible advice in retrospect, after suffering through countless shooting drills wearing XL plates on a tall, lanky frame). Luckily, later on in my military career I was taught to wear the largest plate that fits me without restricting my ability to move & shoot efficiently and effectively. But one thing that I always got mixed signals on was where to position the plates for maximum protection.

    The cadaver-lab part of my brain tells me that I should wear the plates high up, covering the area from bottom of my clavicle to the superior edge of my diaphragm, in both the front and back. However, I consistently see friends and mentors that are far more experienced than I am wear their plates in a way that lets them sag lower on their thorax (especially in the back). I even see this on guys who are considered experts in their field, such as Paul Howe. While he is a proponent of wearing smaller plates and less armor for increased maneuverability, he wears his plates low in the front and super low in the back:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INQpW-x2zIo

    Am I missing something? When forced to choose between protecting the upper thorax (along with the subclavian nervature and vasculature) or the upper abdomen (along with the liver and kidneys and their associated vasculature), am I wrong in assuming that the plates should ride high enough to favor the thorax over the abdomen?

    I am very interested to hear the opinions of the PF crew, especially those with experience in trauma medicine or combat casualty care.

    Thanks, as always,
    Doug
    "I need your help. I can't tell you what it is, you can never ask me about it later, and we're gonna hurt some people."

  2. #2
    Site Supporter Lon's Avatar
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    I wear medium plates. I’m 5’10” 185. High to cover more thorax than abdomen. I adhere to the less armor, more mobility theory. I wear my regular patrol vest under a PC (Crye JPC type) for SWAT ops.
    Formerly known as xpd54.
    The opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect the opinions or policies of my employer.
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  3. #3
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    That video of Paul Howe doesn't look like he's wearing his armor inappropriately to me. It's a little low compared to what is text-book perfect, but it's nothing egregious.

    Sort of like speed and accuracy being a constantly shifting point of intersection, sometimes armor being less restrictive vs having more "proper" coverage is better. Some armor carriers fit better than others, as well, so that also plays a role.

    My rule of thumb is to put it all the way up to my clavicular notch and adjust down as needed. It doesn't matter how textbook correct it is to where it as the clavicular notch if you get choked by your armor when actually doing shit, whether that be dragging a casualty, treating a casualty, cuffing someone, sitting in a vehicle, shooting from adverse angles, or whatever is in your mission set.

    The main goal is to be effective at what you're doing to begin with. The point of armor is to add to your protective posture, not to prioritize your protective posture over being able to perform your mission. This was the hard learned lesson in Iraq and Afghanistan over the last ten years, and many LE realized the same thing around the same time.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  4. #4
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    To add, here's what I call egregious use of armor for personal comfort at the expense of properly using your armor:

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    The reason you want your armor higher is to cover your lungs, the apex of which extend all the way up to the clavicle. Having it lower, while more comfortable, protects your abdomen more than your lungs......and your abdomen is less critical than your lungs in terms of surviving until you make it to a higher echelon of care.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  5. #5
    Member Doug MacRay's Avatar
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    Lon, TGS,

    Thanks for the quick replies. I especially appreciate the picture that illustrates exactly what I mean when I talk about sagging armor. And I definitely agree that armor should preferentially protect the upper thorax so long as it doesn't restrict the ability to shoot or move.

    In many cases I think that this is an issue with plate carrier design. Some carriers have elastic shoulder straps which allow the front and back of the carrier to constantly bounce up and down as you move. I've used these types of carriers before, and they not only chafe the hell out of my chest and back as they bounce, but any gear attached to such a carrier will make noise as it bounces. While it's nice to have cushion when you jump over a wall or something and all 30+ lbs. of gear don't come down on your shoulders, I feel that having non-elastic shoulder straps is better overall. Having armor that sags as you run seems... less than ideal.

    Thanks again for sharing your perspectives.

    -Doug
    "I need your help. I can't tell you what it is, you can never ask me about it later, and we're gonna hurt some people."

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by panzerr
    This is often a misunderstood topic so I thought I should try to clear it up a bit.


    A PDF of this information is available here: http://sixty-six.org/files/proper_wear_of_armor.pdf


    Understanding Armor and the Body


    Body armor is meant to keep you in the fight. It should protect the vital organs which, if hit, would quickly take you down and prevent you from putting rounds on target. The possibility of saving your life is a secondary benefit of body armor. With this purpose in mind we must understand those structures we need to protect which we can realistically protect while still maintaining a high degree of mobility.


    Our primary concern is the heart and the large blood vessels which sprout from the top of the heart: the superior vena cava, the arch of the aorta and the pulmonary trunk. These vessels are collectively referred to as “the great vessels”.
    The heart is important for its obvious function of providing pressure to circulate blood to the lungs via the right side of the heart and then on to the body via the left side of the heart. Within the body the heart lies left of center, with its apex near the left nipple. Thus, while fitting a plate we must select one which will cover the nipples to ensure the entire heart is protected.


    The great vessels of the heart lie directly behind the uppermost portion of the sternum, known as the manubrium, and sit directly on top of the heart. The great vessels wrap and twist around each other, making it likely that a hit to one will likely perforate another and result in massive hemorrhage.


    Arguably the most important of the three great vessels in the Aorta, due to its size and high velocity of blood flow, 5 liters a minute. The average 165 pound man has 5 liters of blood in his body and thus can completely bleed out within one minute if the Aorta is dramatically dissected. Loss of consciousness can occur with less than 40% or 2 liters of blood loss and thus can occur in well under a minute. Of equal importance to the heart is the respiratory diaphragm, the muscle which, when contracting, allows you to decrease air pressure within your lungs and thus take in air. Destroy the diaphragm and you destroy one’s ability to breath. Protecting the entirety of the respiratory diaphragm is not realistic, but the majority of it will be protected by a properly fitted plate. The diaphragm is dome shaped, following the bottom of your rib cage and doming up into the chest cavity.


    Protecting the vertebral column goes without saying -we wish to protect as much of this as possible without sacrificing mobility. Unfortunately, protecting the entire vertebral column is not realistic at this time.


    It is important to note that a hit to the lungs may prove to eventually be lethal but is not nearly as lethal as quickly as a hit to the heart and its great vessels. The liver and kidneys, while highly vascular, are also not immediately incapacitating and thus are of secondary concern. The rest of the viscera in your abdomen are of tertiary concern.




    Finding Balance: Protection vs Mobility


    A chest plate, when properly fitted, should not impinge on the anterior deltoids or pectoralis major muscles when punching out with a handgun or carbine. Any impingement on the shoulder may create discomfort, premature fatigue and possibly even aggravate certain shoulder conditions. In some cases too large of a plate may prevent a shooter from assuming an ideal hold on their weapon. This, and even discomfort, can translate to misses down range.


    A slightly smaller chest plate which fits with no impingement while punching out will not expose the heart as long as it still covers the nipples. A bit more peripheral lung tissue will be exposed along with a small fraction more of the abdominal viscera, but these are organs which can take a hit without immediate consequences to the shooter. As stated previously, a shot to the lung is not immediately fatal. A shot to the periphery of the lung certainly is not immediately fatal and peripheral lung tissue is the worst thing you are sacrificing for a better fitting plate.


    Front/chest plate


    The top of your chest plate should be at the level of your suprasternal notch, which is also known as the jugular notch. Tracing the sternum with a finger superiorly, the soft spot you reach at the top of the sternum is the suprasternal notch. If you press in with your finger and choke yourself you are in the right spot. The chest plate should ride at least level with the top of your sternum while standing. An easy way to ensure this is to place a finger in your suprasternal notch and position the plate such that the top of the plate touches the bottom of your finger.


    Reference image (anterior view)


    Red is your heart and related blood vessels
    Dark Grey/Yellow is a properly positioned plate
    The sternum and clavicle are white with black outline







    Positioning of rear/back plate


    Find the most prominent bony eminence at the base of your neck. This is your vertebral eminence. Count down two bony spinousus (or measure down about an inch) and that should be above the level of the superior aspect of your sternum. Positioning at least this high will ensure your entire heart and the great vessels are protected from a shot to the back.


    Reference image (posterior view)


    The vertebral eminence is marked in the diagram below in blue.





    Side plates and shoulder plates


    Side plates are intended to protect the highly vascular elements of your abdomen. They were introduced to prevent troops from bleeding out in the chopper on the way to the field hospital. Side plates were not necessarily intended to protect the heart, but if you wear them high up into your armpits you can protect some of the lower portion of your heart.


    Protecting your heart from a shot to side is accomplished by shoulder plates, such as the ones manufactured by Crye Precision.






    To sum it up


    Front plate: Even with top of the sternum while standing and covering the entirety of each nipple. For best fit, the plate should not impinge on the shoulder when presenting a weapon.


    Rear plate: Should lie no lower than an inch below your vertebral prominence. A back plate one size larger than a chest plate is optimal.


    Side plates: the higher they ride the better
    Source: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread....ical-diagrams)

  7. #7
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    What default posted was to a T the thread I thought of when I saw this post.

    The anatomical diagrams for placement are spot on.

  8. #8
    Site Supporter PearTree's Avatar
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    What default linked. It's textbook.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  9. #9
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    Thanks for this post.

    After reading this, I'm still not quite certain what to use as a reference to measure the length. I see the anatomical diagrams, but cannot identify a good spot to measure for proper length. I'm trying to order plates, when I look at the standard sizes, I can't tell if an 8" x 10" or 8.75" x 11.75" standard sizes will be too short on me. Per the article, the 8" and 8.75" width will fit me in the thoracic area. But the 10" and 11.75" plates seem short.....

    When I measure from the jugular notch, 11.75" seems to stop in the middle of my diaphragm. (It's about 4.5" above my belly button.) But, longer sizes get too wide for me.

    Can anyone help identify how to measure sufficient length?

    TIA

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy Brown View Post
    Thanks for this post.

    After reading this, I'm still not quite certain what to use as a reference to measure the length. I see the anatomical diagrams, but cannot identify a good spot to measure for proper length. I'm trying to order plates, when I look at the standard sizes, I can't tell if an 8" x 10" or 8.75" x 11.75" standard sizes will be too short on me. Per the article, the 8" and 8.75" width will fit me in the thoracic area. But the 10" and 11.75" plates seem short.....

    When I measure from the jugular notch, 11.75" seems to stop in the middle of my diaphragm. (It's about 4.5" above my belly button.) But, longer sizes get too wide for me.

    Can anyone help identify how to measure sufficient length?

    TIA
    Caveat to everything I'm about to write is that I'm just a gear queer with no actual duty use of armor.

    AFAIK, the only real thing to make sure is that it covers the heart, the major blood vessels above it, and the lungs. I'm 5'8", ~145 lb, and personally just run size SAPI small; smaller plates allow better range of motion, as it is, and is less weight, and might allow you to more easily mount your rifle. Getting the plates high enough is more important than long enough, I believe. My plates start from my clavicle and go to the bottom rib, basically.
    Last edited by Default.mp3; 08-06-2019 at 11:07 PM.

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