Shooting from Retention

[HopetonBrown]

It’s also very important to rotate the pistol to the outside to prevent the slide striking your chest causing injury and or malfunctions.

Check out the video the OP posted for the "thumb pectoral index".

[runcible]

This technique works best when your are standing toe to toe with your target/attacker. For safety while practicing tuck your left hand either on your chest or behind your head before you draw. This is usually combined with an elbow strike to the target and a very aggressive forward stance. Muzzle discipline and trigger finger placement must be strictly enforced. Draw your handgun to the retention position. It’s also very important to rotate the pistol to the outside to prevent the slide striking your chest causing injury and or malfunctions. With revolvers beware of the flame from the cylinder gap. There are several close quarter techniques worth knowing but they require an entire class

Poconnor,

That's not my understanding of the technique in the least, and I'm going to join with HopetonBrown in recommending that you watch the video in its entirety rather than responding off of the preview snapshot. There's a tremendous amount of information present in the video that directly addresses your remarks, that used to only be accessible through course attendance, and it may well be an enjoyable watch for you.

2:25 might speed your access to the good scoop; it's hard to jump further forward from that, without losing some of the essential logic chain from which the TPI emerged. Enjoy!

[Randy Harris]

Really good video.

I was super fortunate, VERY early in my shooting career, to get to experience/train with shooting from retention my 2nd real training class - CRG 2, with @Randy Harris, if I'm remembering correctly (was thinking the first one, crg1 but pretty certain it was 2). Randy teaches very similar with a couple of different options/techniques.


I latched onto it as quite valuable and effective for direct contact shooting. I had assumed that most folks who had been to a training class or two had probably been shown something like this. I didn't realize until a little later being around more shooters (that I've come across at least) that had never thought about it or had any training or reps doing anything close to this.

Thanks for the shout out Miller_man.

I was in one of the very first open enrollment classes Craig and Paul Gomez taught back in 2005 so I guess you could say I was an "early adopter" of the methodology. As to other shooters being exposed to it, most pistol classes are about SHOOTING not about fighting with a gun inside 3 yards. Think about how little time is spent on shooting at 3 yards in most classes.....much less INSIDE 3 yards.

Some pay some lip service to the whole "shooting from retention thing" but if it is not being taught by someone who has put in some dedicated study in that particular problem then you are likely going to see "solutions" taught that work pretty well against cardboard and paper ...but not much else...at least not when the other guy has the initiative. The pistol is just another TOOL at that distance... and not always the BEST tool. At that distance you are probably going to need to put your hands on the other guy in order to keep from getting grabbed, stabbed, knocked down, knocked out, or simply fist beaten into near unconsciousness...BEFORE you can get your gun out and into the fight. And it is entirely possible to shoot yourself if you do not have strict muzzle and finger control. After all, ANY part of your body that is touching his body is , by definition, "down range" from your muzzle. And as such you have to be real careful with where you are pointing your muzzle with regards to where your appendages are currently placed. I'm pretty sure most people will not fight any BETTER after they have shot themselves than you were fighting BEFORE they shot themselves.....

[Totem Polar]

As alluded to by several previous posters, this is a problem that is just recently becoming fully understood, thanks to revolutions like video learning, sim marking guns/protective gear, and resistive FoF training, etc. Craig really is at the current educational cutting edge of this issue, along with the folks he interacts with and teaches. I would go so far as to say that unless someone has studied with one of the shivworks crew, or one of the "early adopters," as Randy puts it who has, then the likelihood of understanding the problem is seriously reduced.

This concept can be taught live fire, to neophytes, if someone understands the goals, requirements, and risks, as Craig does. I’ve seen him work with relative beginners, myself.

Inside of 3 yds requires nothing more than point shooting yet very few people practice that method of shooting.

^^^I don’t personally believe this to be correct at all, as written. I’m less than 24 hours out from directly seeing @Cecil Burch prove this to be a misconception, using a SIRT gun, myself. It’s *fully* possible to miss someone you are physically connected to at just over 3 feet, let alone 3 yards without a solid kinesthetic anchor to your core—which realistically means the pectoral index that Craig discusses in the video.

Nobody should take my word for it, because I’m not an expert—but in-person exposure to experts (Craig, Cecil) left me with no doubt than many shooters don’t understand the problem (not that I do, but at least I’m aware of the problems).

I’ll go so far as to theorize than anyone not connected to the ECQC POI on this topic, at least by instructor lineage, probably doesn’t know what they don’t know. JMO. Take a class with one of these guys and see if I’m correct on this for yourselves.

[NH Shooter]

Craig used to get to Pelham NH every fall. Not sure if the tactical training program
at NE Shooters is as strong as in past years but you should keep an eye on the schedule.

https://www.neshooters.com/index.html

That's where I met SouthNarc a number of years ago, taking his MUC class. If he were to offer it as part of the Pelham program I'd be all over it.

[blues]

Certainly beats having to roll with an actual bad guy who's making a move on your pistol...

[Randy Harris]

^^^I don’t personally believe this to be correct at all, as written. I’m less than 24 hours out from directly seeing @Cecil Burch prove this to be a misconception, using a SIRT gun, myself. It’s *fully* possible to miss someone you are physically connected to at just over 3 feet, let alone 3 yards without a solid kinesthetic anchor to your core—which realistically means the pectoral index that Craig discusses in the video.

On April 5 1879 "Cockeyed" Frank Loving and Levi Richardson shot it out ACROSS A TABLE in the Longbranch Saloon in Dodge City Kansas. After emptying their guns with the barrels so close they almost touched each other Richardson scored only a grazing hit on Loving's hand while Loving hit Richardson in the chest, arm and side killing him. So yeah.....you certainly CAN miss at arm's length.....

[Borderland]

As alluded to by several previous posters, this is a problem that is just recently becoming fully understood, thanks to revolutions like video learning, sim marking guns/protective gear, and resistive FoF training, etc. Craig really is at the current educational cutting edge of this issue, along with the folks he interacts with and teaches. I would go so far as to say that unless someone has studied with one of the shivworks crew, or one of the "early adopters," as Randy puts it who has, then the likelihood of understanding the problem is seriously reduced.

This concept can be taught live fire, to neophytes, if someone understands the goals, requirements, and risks, as Craig does. I’ve seen him work with relative beginners, myself.




^^^I don’t personally believe this to be correct at all, as written. I’m less than 24 hours out from directly seeing @Cecil Burch prove this to be a misconception, using a SIRT gun, myself. It’s *fully* possible to miss someone you are physically connected to at just over 3 feet, let alone 3 yards without a solid kinesthetic anchor to your core—which realistically means the pectoral index that Craig discusses in the video.

Nobody should take my word for it, because I’m not an expert—but in-person exposure to experts (Craig, Cecil) left me with no doubt than many shooters don’t understand the problem (not that I do, but at least I’m aware of the problems).

I’ll go so far as to theorize than anyone not connected to the ECQC POI on this topic, at least by instructor lineage, probably doesn’t know what they don’t know. JMO. Take a class with one of these guys and see if I’m correct on this for yourselves.

I'm not questioning the concept in the video. I'm sure it works very well.

What I was referring to was shooting without using sights (unaimed fire) and this would qualify.

This is more or less to the point of my post. Ditch the sights in close quarters. Practice without using them under 3 yds.

https://youtu.be/Z2GXqTJ20I0

[Aray]

I'm not questioning the concept in the video. I'm sure it works very well.

What I was referring to was shooting without using sights (unaimed fire) and this would qualify.

This is more or less to the point of my post. Ditch the sights in close quarters. Practice without using them under 3 yds.

It’s not “unaimed”, it’s aimed using a physical body index. It is “unsighted”.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Totem Polar]

It’s not “unaimed”, it’s aimed using a physical body index. It is “unsighted”.

Yeah, now we are getting into issues of language clouding what’s actually happening. I agree that this is in no way unaimed fire, and it’s not "point shooting," either. In addition to the physical index, he’s using what I learned to call the "Cirillo silhouette index." Jim Cirillo was writing about using that exact technique of using the blocky Glock slide to aim 25 years ago, and talking about it even earlier.

It’s also a completely different tool and application than the one in the OP’s video link and discussion, IMO.