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Thread: Shooting from Retention

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by EPF View Post
    Their is an entire forum for that. It’s called Total Protection Interactive and the archives there contain more than a decade worth of Intellectual rigor. On full display is the trial and error, cause and effect, and open debate. Backed up by FOF or real world data. It’s not a comprehensive look at everything the collective worked through, but a record of a long, open, and ongoing process.

    To my eyes the Shivworks entangled/close quarters curriculum has always been an open laboratory rather than a fixed POI. That approach makes it unique. It seems to me that it’s more of a living changing thing rather than a fixed set of techniques. However, any attempt at an objective semi-scientific process requires evidence to be accepted and integrated. Nearly any technique can work once, but over time a set of techniques with a high percentage of success emerges.

    That process can only happen over time and creates what I consider a FRAMEWORK rather than a SYSTEM. Within the framework, one can plug in many different techniques depending on experience, body type, situation, equipment, terrain, etc.

    These debates always become tedious because it’s hard to move the ball forward when you have to keep explaining the basics of how we got here to a new entrant. So I understand why people get testy when every attempt to discuss the progress and share info is derailed by someone who hasn’t really done the research and wants everyone to drop everything, backtrack, and prove it to them. Still, I think it’s worthwhile to go through this no matter how tedious because at least one person reading this saw the path and was saved from wasting their time chasing nonsense.

    Also: Like you I don’t share my background on the internet and I respect the right of those who don’t. If you choose to keep your experience level private, it’s seems unwise to hold your experience out as evidence of competence.

    Nice. That's pretty much inline with my perspective.

    In terms of my personal experience, I wasn't aware of anyone asking or being interested in it. And usually when I've shared anything anout my background on gun related forums, my honestly is questioned unless I reveal my identity. I'm not trying to attract new students, gain any kind of recognition, so I choose to stay anonymous since there is really no valid reason for doing otherwise.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
    Nice. That's pretty much inline with my perspective.

    In terms of my personal experience, I wasn't aware of anyone asking or being interested in it. And usually when I've shared anything anout my background on gun related forums, my honestly is questioned unless I reveal my identity. I'm not trying to attract new students, gain any kind of recognition, so I choose to stay anonymous since there is really no valid reason for doing otherwise.
    obtuse[ uhb-toos, -tyoos ]
    adjective
    not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.
    not sharp, acute, or pointed; blunt in form.
    (of a leaf, petal, etc.) rounded at the extremity.
    indistinctly felt or perceived, as pain or sound.

  3. #83
    banana republican blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EPF View Post
    obtuse[ uhb-toos, -tyoos ]
    adjective
    not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.
    not sharp, acute, or pointed; blunt in form.
    (of a leaf, petal, etc.) rounded at the extremity.
    indistinctly felt or perceived, as pain or sound.
    LOL! While you were writing your reply I was actually thinking of a time honored term used in law enforcement:

    wea·sel words
    noun
    words or statements that are intentionally ambiguous or misleading.
    A weasel word, or anonymous authority, is an informal term for words and phrases such as "researchers believe" and "most people think" which make arguments appear specific or meaningful, even though these terms are at best ambiguous and vague.
    There's nothing civil about this war.

    Read: Harrison Bergeron

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by EPF View Post
    obtuse[ uhb-toos, -tyoos ]
    adjective
    not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.
    not sharp, acute, or pointed; blunt in form.
    (of a leaf, petal, etc.) rounded at the extremity.
    indistinctly felt or perceived, as pain or sound.

    Thanks for that. Pretty much the kind of response I should expect, but you actually are fairly observant, even if you may not fully understand what you're seeing.

    I have a teenage son that was recently diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome. Considered barely on/off the spectrum, he doesn't really meet the criteria very well in terms of checking off boxes, but that's the current label they decided to put on him. In 20 years there will likely be a different classification for kids like him and the ever broadening and inclusive spectrum will be looked back upon as a time of ignorance. My son is a legitimate genius with an IQ of 180. His deficients are primarily limited to and related to social interaction/understanding/communication. I say deficients, but they are only considered such because most people are neuro-typical. If everyone was like him, there really wouldn't be any issues.

    He's actually a lot like his father. Despite never receiving a formal diagnosis, it might be different if I were in school today. I don't have his towering IQ, but it's still high enough to get me into Mensa, but I'm pretty socially inept and very introverted. I still manage despite rubbing a lot of people the wrong way, but I don't get push back in person like I do on these forums.Most would probably call me eccentric. No issues recognizing and identifying violent intent or pre-conflict cues, but you never would have found me joking around in my classes or going out for beer afterwards. I was an extremely gifted athlete who excelled at every sport I tried, but the social component created some problems, plus it created resentment among my peers since I was a "quitter". My parents thought karate might be a suitable physical outlet for someone like me, so I checked out and joined the local AJKA school headed by Ray Dalke. I was told I was doing things from the get go it usually takes most people years of training to pull off. I can see, feel and understand an opponents movements like most can't. I rose quickly through the ranks and got talked into competition despite not having much interest. I was very good at it and quickly got the attention of the several national team coaches. I was offered college scholarships, free housing and most expenses covered. Many coaches felt I was the best hope for an American to win a medal or first ever WKF World Championship for the US, but they were baffled and put off by my behavior and repeatedly reinforced that marketing myself and interpersonal relationships were as important as my physical performance. A "kinetic genius" one labeled me, but there's just something not quite right with me he added.

    My only passing interest in competition was in representing my country at the Olympics, but I didn't see that happening anytime soon, so I took a look into TKD and Judo. I got some lucrative offers, but my heart just wasn't in it and the social obstacles persisted. I had wrestled, but didn't like the culture. Andre Tippett suggested that with my speed(4.5 40)l physique and overall athleticism, I should consider pursuing an NFL career via a walk on tryout. They'd teach me what I needed to know he said, but I knew it was a no-go for me due to the personalities involved as well as the social commitments. Plus I really found being on TV unsettling and decided never again. I then tried boxing and kickboxing mainly out of frustration and found success, but didn't really gain pleasure from hurting people I had no personal animous towards. Had a couple of natural bodybuilding offers from promoters, but no thanks. Art Davie tracked me down in the mid-90's and said he wanted me for the UFC. He said he thought Shamrock and I would make for a good matchup and that he would make it happen. We were of similar size and build(when he wasn't juicing), but I was known as a striker and he a grappler which made for an interesting contrast. Plus I could jump-kick a basketball goal and he wanted to highlight it. A couple of years later he tried to persuade me into K-1. I honestly could have cared less about either.

    I had been teaching martial arts and self-defense classes of one type or another since I was 19 years old and
    I've trained in about every style of martial art, Combatives and various H2H programs imaginaeable. I've ventured into weapons training with Mike Janich, Richard Ryan, Bram Frank, Ron Balicki, Mas Ayoob, Chuck Taylor and Karl Rehn to name a few, although probably the most influential individual on me in terms of armed defense was a local and rather reclusive and eccentric Vietnam vet, Green Beret and lifetime martial artist I befriended and learned a lot from. We spoke the "same language" as it were and spent as much time discussing life as we did fighting methods. I wrote a few articles that were published in Black Belt along the way, but found writing to be a daunting task, plus they always edited my material to the point I felt a lot of my points were lost. I started getting LEO's in my classes from the start who suggested I expand into teaching Defensive Tactics and I thought that was a good idea and did so for nearly 3 decades and that's where my experience with weapon retention and close-quarter shooting was derived. I've worked with PD's(both state and local) directly to help revamp their existing DT programs. I've also worked Combatives with Military units although not too much. I always prefered small classes and increasingly turned down more students and opportunities than I accepted. One thing I always did which I don't see many instructors do is prove the effectiveness of my methods myself. There will always be people who will try and test you no matter who you are and on more than one occasion, I would invite a new officer to freely attack me without any gear on to demonstrate I could control him with hurting him or him me. Maybe that speaks more to my individual ability than of the effectiveness of what I taught to average individuals, but it had a profound impact nonetheless. I rarely teach anymore, but will help out old friends if they ask.

    You can't confuse prominence with proficiency since some people could care less about fame and money. A good fighter doesn't always make for a good teacher, but a good instructor who can perform and execute at an elite level will always be infinitely better in helping you get there compared to one of mediocre ability.

  5. #85
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    nevermind
    Last edited by BehindBlueI's; 07-23-2019 at 01:43 PM.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  6. #86
    Member feudist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    nevermind
    Well said.

  7. #87
    Supporting Business NH Shooter's Avatar
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    I too am a Jedi Knight. But you'll just have to take my word for it. ;-)

  8. #88
    The topic is “Shooting From Retention”. Got it?
    #RESIST

  9. #89
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poconnor View Post
    This technique works best when your are standing toe to toe with your target/attacker. For safety while practicing tuck your left hand either on your chest or behind your head before you draw. This is usually combined with an elbow strike to the target and a very aggressive forward stance. Muzzle discipline and trigger finger placement must be strictly enforced. Draw your handgun to the retention position. It’s also very important to rotate the pistol to the outside to prevent the slide striking your chest causing injury and or malfunctions. With revolvers beware of the flame from the cylinder gap. There are several close quarter techniques worth knowing but they require an entire class
    Negative ghost rider. That's doing it wrong. Even though it's commonly taught that way.

    Thumb-pectoral index exists for a laundry list of reasons.
    I am the owner of Agile/Training and Consulting
    www.agiletactical.com

  10. #90
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    The thumb pectoral index worked pretty good for me when I was wrestling with dudes in my ECQC evos.
    Last edited by TCinVA; 07-24-2019 at 02:11 PM.
    3/15/2016

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