Shooting from Retention

[Mister X]

You come across as someone "testing us" more than someone legitimately looking for, or sharing, valid critiques. You wanted to see if there was a cult of personality that would preclude criticism. There wasn't. Are you done?

Dad was a marketer and Stepdad was a psychologist. Maybe I just have a propensity to analyze things most people don't.

I don't know, do any of the regulars really ever disagree or debate Craig or Cecil? It sure doesn't seem like they really do based on the threads I've been reading through. If someone does, then it's dog-pile time. You guys appear to discuss and debate gun matters fairly well, but when it comes to the ECQ stuff, it seems to be a matter of just defaulting to whatever the Shivworks guys say, plus they apparently have a monopoly on moderating the unarmed combatives sub-forum as well.

Asking for evidence that would convince a skeptic something works sure seems like a legitimate question to me. If I asked for proof that the ammunition in your carry weapon is effective, you would probably be able to provide me with quite a bit of hard evidence to prove its effectiveness, rather than question my motives. The Gracie Challenge and subsequently the UFC were used as a means to demonstrate the effectiveness of GJJ/BJJ and it was ultimately a very convincing and influential marketing tool.

There seems to be a lot of articulate and well-trained individuals on this forum, but the same could be said about another forum that's moderated by a guy who fancies himself as some kind of pirate and the seemingly well-trained devotees are always in perfect sync with whatever he dictates is the way to go, which seems to change as often as whichever direction the wind blows. I see some similarities here with the whole SME concept, although to a lesser degree. I think it better that people think for themselves and alternative viewpoints be welcomed and considered. Plus with Internet forums, you often never know who you're shouting down.

[BehindBlueI's]

From your join date, I would assume know the moderation is brand new.

Nobody is shouting you down. There is nothing to shout down as what have you actually said? If you want to critique, do so with specifics.

I stand by my original statement.

[runcible]

Dad was a marketer and Stepdad was a psychologist. Maybe I just have a propensity to analyze things most people don't.

I don't know, do any of the regulars really ever disagree or debate Craig or Cecil? It sure doesn't seem like they really do based on the threads I've been reading through. If someone does, then it's dog-pile time. You guys appear to discuss and debate gun matters fairly well, but when it comes to the ECQ stuff, it seems to be a matter of just defaulting to whatever the Shivworks guys say, plus they apparently have a monopoly on moderating the unarmed combatives sub-forum as well.

Asking for evidence that would convince a skeptic something works sure seems like a legitimate question to me. If I asked for proof that the ammunition in your carry weapon is effective, you would probably be able to provide me with quite a bit of hard evidence to prove its effectiveness, rather than question my motives. The Gracie Challenge and subsequently the UFC were used as a means to demonstrate the effectiveness of GJJ/BJJ and it was ultimately a very convincing and influential marketing tool.

There seems to be a lot of articulate and well-trained individuals on this forum, but the same could be said about another forum that's moderated by a guy who fancies himself as some kind of pirate and the seemingly well-trained devotees are always in perfect sync with whatever he dictates is the way to go, which seems to change as often as whichever direction the wind blows. I see some similarities here with the whole SME concept, although to a lesser degree. I think it better that people think for themselves and alternative viewpoints be welcomed and considered. Plus with Internet forums, you often never know who you're shouting down.

Plenty of people "thought for themselves" and explored "alternate viewpoints" during the war years, and the rest of us are poorer for their idealism. There's plenty of ways to apply the first tourniquet, but there's one that will get the job done more often than not and be applied long before you've finished deciding which of the other options is most suitable. There's plenty of ways to cross a linear danger area, but fewer of them work when the enemy's there. Diversity in austerity is not virtuous; it is moot, relative to survival traits and competitive advantage. Combat writ large or small, is austerity personified.

The unanswered question remains: what do YOU actually believe in? If you offer criticism without substitute, then you're the poorest of us all; and by demonstration, there is no substance to you except the desire to pull others down.

You're making quite a bit about a sub-form that went live 50 days ago, on a forum that has existed for quite a many of years - with you having been here for at least the last 4 of them. That's a pretty transparent shifting of the goal posts, once again.

Your ever-increasing standards of required supporting evidence, and out-of-hand dismissal of what's been offered to you in good faith is a further movement of the goal posts and is willfully dishonest.

Your self-appointment to the position of Speaker of Truth to Power and trying to "knock (them) off of their pedestal" is uninteresting and poorly attempted.

[WobblyPossum]

You ask for hard evidence that the techniques work and then say that you don’t consider force on force training as evidence. The only thing more evidentiary than force on force when you’re talking about defensive firearms use is data from actual gunfights. Gunfights, contrary to what the media wants you to believe, are still pretty rare. Gunfights in which one or more of the participants has some background in the techniques being discussed are so rare that they’re practically nonexistent. Force on force is all you really get. There isn’t a UFC analog for gunfighting. You can’t go full realism with gunfighting in competition because competitors would kill each other and that doesn’t do wonders for the staying power of a sport.

[Mister X]

You ask for hard evidence that the techniques work and then say that you don’t consider force on force training as evidence. The only thing more evidentiary than force on force when you’re talking about defensive firearms use is data from actual gunfights. Gunfights, contrary to what the media wants you to believe, are still pretty rare. Gunfights in which one or more of the participants has some background in the techniques being discussed are so rare that they’re practically nonexistent. Force on force is all you really get. There isn’t a UFC analog for gunfighting. You can’t go full realism with gunfighting in competition because competitors would kill each other and that doesn’t do wonders for the staying power of a sport.

What I stated was just simply saying you've pressure-tested it in force-on-force doesn't really mean much since pretty much everyone on gun forums says that and they aren't always referring to the same thing and often nothing is known about the quality of the training they're referencing. Rener Gracie mentions it in his video, but doesn't demonstrate or share any video about how it was conducted, so we don't really know exactly what he's basing his conclusions on. I'm a big fan of FOF and have been utilizing it for over three decades, although that particular term wasn't in widespread use in the late 80's and 90's. There's a relatively wide array of possible ways to conduct such training and if poorly thought out, false conclusions will be reached. No matter how well it's executed, it's still a simulation and certain considerations and those limitations must be accepted and understood.

[Totem Polar]

Mister X, with respect, the POI under discussion per the OP has been tested by a bunch of us here. The numerous alum of ECQC/EWO and IAJJ posting here have given it a fair shake for themselves, and made up their collective minds that it’s good stuff. I’ve personally talked to individuals who’ve hunted and killed dudes on the job, and really like the stuff they see coming out of the Shivworks collective. In short, it IS a proven POI.

The onus is on you to show differently, frankly.

Go take a course, and look for the warts yourself. Watching some videos isn’t the same thing as stuffing a young, strong, MMA-trained cop’s arm drag, pulling off a duck under against a fit AF MARSOC dude who doesn’t let you, getting knocked out by an elementary school teacher using the class tools, or having a 40-something blonde lady wipe the floor with you during ground evos, because, tools/techniques. I know this stuff is good, from both giving and receiving, and that only comes from stepping up to bat and giving it a try. It’s easy to pick the shit out of something you haven’t felt for yourself. JMO.

[Mister X]

Mister X, with respect, the POI under discussion per the OP has been tested by a bunch of us here. The numerous alum of ECQC/EWO and IAJJ posting here have given it a fair shake for themselves, and made up their collective minds that it’s good stuff. I’ve personally talked to individuals who’ve hunted and killed dudes on the job, and really like the stuff they see coming out of the Shivworks collective. In short, it IS a proven POI.

The onus is on you to show differently, frankly.

Go take a course, and look for the warts yourself. Watching some videos isn’t the same thing as stuffing a young, strong, MMA-trained cop’s arm drag, pulling off a duck under against a fit AF MARSOC dude who doesn’t let you, getting knocked out by an elementary school teacher using the class tools, or having a 40-something blonde lady wipe the floor with you during ground evos, because, tools/techniques. I know this stuff is good, from both giving and receiving, and that only comes from stepping up to bat and giving it a try. It’s easy to pick the shit out of something you haven’t felt for yourself. JMO.

Thanks. That's a lot closer to answering what I've been asking.

I'm not trying to prove anything, I'm just wanting some insight into how people come to the conclusions they reach on this topic. No hidden intentions as some seem to be attributing motives that simply aren't there. My communication is fairly literally and direct.

I've never said much about myself, so you really can't assume what I've actually done and haven't. I could be an obese kid in his mom's basement or a highly trained world class martial artist and athlete. Either way, you can't always equate prominence with proficiency, because some guys honestly aren't interested in recognition, fame or money.

[Totem Polar]

I've never said much about myself, so you really can't assume what I've actually done and haven't. I could be an obese kid in his mom's basement or a highly trained world class martial artist and athlete. Either way, you can't always equate prominence with proficiency, because some guys honestly aren't interested in recognition, fame or money.

I can dig it. I wouldn’t assume obese kid in a basement around this place as a rule, but I get what you are saying. Let me be more direct: I’ve stood 10 feet from the Marine Colonel who founded their current martial arts program as he said, loosely: “I’ve killed a whole bunch of fuckers, and I’ve seen a lot of stuff, and Craig’s is the best I’ve seen..." (more or less; I’m paraphrasing). I’ve co-hosted Cecil along with a black belt hall of fame inductee, who thought enough of Cecil to tell me that he’s welcome back at his school next year. I’ve seen a harms way/action dude Fed come to an ECQC with a bit of a chip on his shoulder, only to state openly at the end that Craig’s retention stuff was light years ahead of his last FLETC session. That same dude has been at every Shivworks class I’ve been at since then, voting with his wallet (in fact, he was the guy holding me up after I got KTFO in EWO last March, IIRC).

I’ll tell you who I am: I am a classical musician with bad knees and shitty eyes and an iron will. When I can make the stand up game harder for guys 20 years my junior who’ve trained in Brazil with the Gracies, or dudes who put the hurt on people professionally at the behest of our Gov’t, using portions of the POI, then there is something there. Again, JMO.

Check any of these guys out when you can; don’t take anyone’s word for it, especially mine.

[EPF]

Dad was a marketer and Stepdad was a psychologist. Maybe I just have a propensity to analyze things most people don't.

I don't know, do any of the regulars really ever disagree or debate Craig or Cecil? It sure doesn't seem like they really do based on the threads I've been reading through. If someone does, then it's dog-pile time. You guys appear to discuss and debate gun matters fairly well, but when it comes to the ECQ stuff, it seems to be a matter of just defaulting to whatever the Shivworks guys say, plus they apparently have a monopoly on moderating the unarmed combatives sub-forum as well.

Asking for evidence that would convince a skeptic something works sure seems like a legitimate question to me. If I asked for proof that the ammunition in your carry weapon is effective, you would probably be able to provide me with quite a bit of hard evidence to prove its effectiveness, rather than question my motives. The Gracie Challenge and subsequently the UFC were used as a means to demonstrate the effectiveness of GJJ/BJJ and it was ultimately a very convincing and influential marketing tool.

There seems to be a lot of articulate and well-trained individuals on this forum, but the same could be said about another forum that's moderated by a guy who fancies himself as some kind of pirate and the seemingly well-trained devotees are always in perfect sync with whatever he dictates is the way to go, which seems to change as often as whichever direction the wind blows. I see some similarities here with the whole SME concept, although to a lesser degree. I think it better that people think for themselves and alternative viewpoints be welcomed and considered. Plus with Internet forums, you often never know who you're shouting down.

Their is an entire forum for that. It’s called Total Protection Interactive and the archives there contain more than a decade worth of Intellectual rigor. On full display is the trial and error, cause and effect, and open debate. Backed up by FOF or real world data. It’s not a comprehensive look at everything the collective worked through, but a record of a long, open, and ongoing process.

To my eyes the Shivworks entangled/close quarters curriculum has always been an open laboratory rather than a fixed POI. That approach makes it unique. It seems to me that it’s more of a living changing thing rather than a fixed set of techniques. However, any attempt at an objective semi-scientific process requires evidence to be accepted and integrated. Nearly any technique can work once, but over time a set of techniques with a high percentage of success emerges.

That process can only happen over time and creates what I consider a FRAMEWORK rather than a SYSTEM. Within the framework, one can plug in many different techniques depending on experience, body type, situation, equipment, terrain, etc.

These debates always become tedious because it’s hard to move the ball forward when you have to keep explaining the basics of how we got here to a new entrant. So I understand why people get testy when every attempt to discuss the progress and share info is derailed by someone who hasn’t really done the research and wants everyone to drop everything, backtrack, and prove it to them. Still, I think it’s worthwhile to go through this no matter how tedious because at least one person reading this saw the path and was saved from wasting their time chasing nonsense.

Also: Like you I don’t share my background on the internet and I respect the right of those who don’t. If you choose to keep your experience level private, it seems unwise to hold your experience out as evidence of competence.

[blues]

If you choose to keep your experience level private, it’s seems unwise to hold your experience out as evidence of competence.

Very well said.