Shooting from Retention

[HopetonBrown]

Pretty good stuff no doubt, although I do have some concerns regarding the thinking that one individual or small group is the infallible authority or somehow the only reputable source on this issue.

I don't think that's happening.

But the whole rock'n'lock/outward cant that has been taught for decades was also taught to me, then I took Craig's class and it became apparent how much more thought out his approach was.

The attached image is from an Instagram ad for a local instructor whose centerpiece class is about arms length gunfights. I've taken a different class from him and he's a nice guy with decades in the military and law enforcement, which I do not have.

Where is his center of gravity? How would this play out if he was shooting a non consenting opponent? This class is being taught to departments all throughout my area.

Maybe it's a great class, but it's a strange photo to choose for your ad.

I guess the gist of my comment is sometimes stuff is taught because that's the way it's always been taught, and nobody thought to question it.

[Mister X]

Yup. The problem is finding those that can teach...Teaching is very much not the same as doing. Some of those that can teach can do. Few of those that can do can teach. I don't believe that SouthNarc's program is the only one, but based on my experiece it is a really, really good one.

That's a good point. Some guys have a high level of proficiency and knowledge themselves, but just can't impart it to another person for whatever reason. And I've seen guys with very medicore skills who are great teachers. Proficiency and knowledge also being two different things, but often referenced as being synonymous. A great instructor understands the needs for an individualized approach as well as the limitations and is able to customize their methods. A really physically talented guy can often get away with things most can't and the best response for them in a given situation may be different from the average person. There will be at least some subtle differences in application between nearly everyone and physical limitations often have to be addressed and mitigated, but that often seems to get overlooked by many in the gun world, but a good teacher gets it and will teach accordingly. Fighting effectively with a gun is very much an art.

I don't think that's happening.

But the whole rock'n'lock/outward cant that has been taught for decades was also taught to me, then I took Craig's class and it became apparent how much more thought out his approach was.

The attached image is from an Instagram ad for a local instructor whose centerpiece class is about arms length gunfights. I've taken a different class from him and he's a nice guy with decades in the military and law enforcement, which I do not have.

Where is his center of gravity? How would this play out if he was shooting a non consenting opponent? This class is being taught to departments all throughout my area.

Maybe it's a great class, but it's a strange photo to choose for your ad.

I guess the gist of my comment is sometimes stuff is taught because that's the way it's always been taught, and nobody thought to question it.

Question everything and everybody. I would encourage everyone to take the class, but ultimately think for yourself by not taking everything as being unquestionably correct and set in stone. If you look at any given instructor's curriculum, it usually changes(often drastically) over the course of time, so are they right now or before? Maybe they even swing back around to an earlier way of thinking and methodology, with a few tweaks and better understanding of it. Groupthink is human nature. Every political party, martial art style and most forums have that dynamic going on. "Outsider" opinions that differ from the group and recognized leaders aren't usually very welcome and few seem willing to challenge the established beliefs and hierarchy.

Although some guys are both, most of the ECQ stuff has pretty much always been spearheaded by martial artists, rather than defensive shooting instructors. The latter have historically been somewhat dismissive of the issue from my perspective or have come up with some less than practical solutions. I look back when I was teaching DT to cops back in the 90's and much of my material looks fairly similar to a lot of what the Shivworks guys are currently doing.

[UNM1136]

What is a runaway reload?

When the shooter backpedaled to reload...he was running away while reloading, which in the big picture may be the right and correct thing to do, but when in class, trying to learn and perform a particular skillset may be detrimental to the learning, or downright dangerous on the line. It was more a comment on the tactics vs. training mindset and focusing on the educational objective rather than overall total applicability. When teaching live fire an instructor needs to control the shooter(s), or else there will be very little safe instruction of difficult subjects...

pat

[Erick Gelhaus]

Pretty good stuff no doubt, although I do have some concerns regarding the thinking that one individual or small group is the infallible authority or somehow the only reputable source on this issue.

I guess the gist of my comment is sometimes stuff is taught because that's the way it's always been taught, and nobody thought to question it.

If I may weigh-in, the above image is what was taught during the police academy I attended in '89 - the Speed Rock. While it was presented as quick, quicker, it also put the shooter terribly off balance. That loss of balance is problematic during a deadly force situation occurring within arm's reach. The other frequent problem that seemed to stem from it has been the shooter extending the handgun towards the Bad Guy, almost inviting a fight over a drawn gun.

By the mid-90s, and I can't honestly tell you where / who it was from (though I'm thinking Gunsite), I first saw and continued to see a retention shooting position that could be a predecessor to what Douglas et al. are teaching now: when upright, the body remains in a more traditional fighting stance/platform, shoulders & weight bias forward; at count #2 of the presentation, as the muzzle rotates up & forward but still adjacent to the ribs, the handgun is locked in place, and the shoots can be fired.

In classes from several well-known & not so well-known instructors since they have taught something similar to the above.

I don't remember specific discussions of a tactile index when I first saw this, but one has evolved. Craig et al. teach the pectoral index with the shooting thumb, I understand it, I've heard it from him, I've watched his students use it. I'll show it, recommend it, to right-handers.

As a left-hander, I'd ended up using a magazine base pad index, when I could feel the base pad through my shirt, through my soft armor, etc. I knew the pistol was where I wanted it. I've tried Craig's pectoral index, with him explicitly watching me. I find I roll the slide too far inboard and I induce my stoppages. For me, it is a case of adapting a technique to my messed-up-ness.

Anyway, long route to say I believe Craig has done a tremendous job in advancing & communicating a better way to shoot from a retention position. However, this is not a case of the community listening to a sole source. He has the best explanation, package, presentation on it that I've come across. People are paying attention for a reason.

[HopetonBrown]

When the shooter backpedaled to reload...he was running away while reloading, which in the big picture may be the right and correct thing to do, but when in class, trying to learn and perform a particular skillset may be detrimental to the learning, or downright dangerous on the line.

He *was* the line. These are two Army Rangers conducting training. Sounds like square range thinking more than objective thinking.

[UNM1136]

He *was* the line. These are two Army Rangers conducting training. Sounds like square range thinking more than objective thinking.

Ok. I recall parts of ECQC that were not allowed to be filmed due to misinterpretation. Most instructors agree that the square range is vital to developing basic skillsets before going forward. I saw different stuff than you did, and/or weighed it differently.

I still hold Craig in the highest respect, and he has my email and my cell phone number if he wishes to correct me. My kids will be meeting him soon enough. Please notice my comment was directed to the specific segment of the video, and that I initially indicated it was likely correct and proper overall, but not conducive to what was being taught at the time. I also pointed out that it appeared to have been addressed, and that I was sure it had been handled tactfully, professionally, and productively. Maybe my point of view was skewed by taking ECQC as a single person in a (I think) 16 person class, rather than one on one. Maybe we both need to take Cecil's close range pistol course to get a broader prospective on the matter. I certainly don't think it merits much argument.

I have my opinions, and you have yours. I am MUCH more understanding of individual variations than most of my co-workers. I think that we can disagree without being disagreeable, and discussion is what PF is all about...

pat

[HopetonBrown]

Most instructors agree that the square range is vital to developing basic skillsets before going forward.

I don't understand why you bring this up because it's rather obvious this isn't a basic handgun course with an inexperienced shooter.

I also pointed out that it appeared to have been addressed, and that I was sure it had been handled tactfully, professionally, and productively.

If that did happen they would've edited out the part you objected so strongly to.

[UNM1136]

^^^^^OK.
pat

[blues]

If this sniping continues I'm going to ask LL to change the title to "Shooting From Anal Retention".

Seriously, there's an opportunity here to share info that we can all benefit from. Pointing fingers, (except in the event the thread title is changed), helps not at all imho.

[UNM1136]

If this sniping continues I'm going to ask LL to change the title to "Shooting From Anal Retention".

Seriously, there's an opportunity here to share info that we can all benefit from. Pointing fingers, (except in the event the thread title is changed), helps not at all imho.

You are right, Blues. Lotta court time this week, making the insomnia worse, and using prescription sleep aids more than normal, and more than I like to.

I was posting while my meds hit and was not as courteous, gracious, or well spoken as I normally want to be. Mr. HopetonBrown, I hope we can move past this and continue to be productive members of this board.

Totally my fault, and I will put the tablet down when I take my sleep meds in the future.

pat