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Thread: Thinking of making a short 11-87

  1. #1
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    Thinking of making a short 11-87

    So I have this Remington 11-87 Express. The gun came with a 28" vent rib barrel that seems ridiculously long to me. I never actually used that barrel, I got a 21" barrel with "rifle" sights that seemed a more reasonable length. However the gun never worked quite reliably, especially with a magazine extension, so it has lately just been sitting in the safe while I got an 870 Police I have had much better success with.

    While our new firearms law is meant to be more restricting, one little oopsie they made is shortening the minimum length requirements for long guns rather significantly. Which got me thinking... Since that 11-87 never did work the way I wanted to with a magazine extension, what if I were to make a shorty version of it? Just because I can, and because the anti-gun politicians would freak out if they ever knew they made a gun like that legal. I could take that unnecessary 28" barrel (that I am stuck with, anyways, due to legal technicalities) and lop that down to... Well. How short could it go? I know there are 14" version in the US, but couldn't the barrel be shortened a tad more and still be the same length as the hand guard? Or is there some reason why 14" was the length of the short barrel version?

    How much skill would shortening the barrel require? Have angle grinder, will cut, or..? Of course for better shot patterns having the cut barrel re-threaded for chokes would probably be the wisest move. Some sort of a sighting system would have to be put on the barrel, but I'm thinking the vent rib could help here.

    A simpler choice would of course be to leave the gun as is, perhaps sell the extra barrel and just use the gun for skeet or trap. But not being all that mature, I get a kick out of the idea of creating a gun that until a short time ago would have been incredibly illegal.

    Before I fire up the ol' angle grinder, has someone here shot one of those short barrel 11-87's? What can you tell me about shooting one?
    Last edited by That Guy; 07-13-2019 at 02:43 PM.

  2. #2
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    Ok, I'm going to dive in here. Making a semi-auto shotgun work properly is in my opinion, harder than most semi-auto rifles. First, shotguns are normally expected to run with a variety of ammunition ranging from skeet loads up to slugs and buckshot. Low brass, lower pressure, lower velocities up to hard recoiling, high brass, higher pressure rounds. For practice and fun, most people prefer to shoot the lower cost, lower recoiling loads. That doesn't matter with a pump, but it does when you are trying to tap off the right amount of gas. When you shorten a barrel from 28" to say 12", you need to balance the gas port size, recoil spring and magazine spring. These are rough guidelines because I'm not intimately familiar with the gas system of the 11-87, other than the fact that I couldn't get one to run right.
    Moving forward, gas ports. The size of the gas port determines how much gas gets in to run the piston. Barrel length past the gas port(s) determines your dwell time, how long there is gas in the barrel before the shot and wad leave the muzzle and pressure in the barrel drops precipitously. When you shorten the barrel down to the handguard and close to the gas port, you reduce the dwell time to almost nothing. That means the port has to be big enough to get all the gas it needs in basically one shot. So you're dumping a big load of very hot, high pressure gas into the port to the piston and op rods.
    Your recoil spring both returns the bolt carrier to chamber another round, but it also buffers some of the recoil and is critical to the timing. You fire a round, the shot column moves down the barrel, gas enters the gas port and causes the piston and op rods to push the carrier to the rear, unlock the bolt, extract the spent shell, stop the rearward travel AND start the bolt carrier forward to pick up the next shell that was just placed on the lifter, and chamber it. If the bolt carrier is moving too fast, it may run faster than the shell stops can release the new shell, the magazine spring push it onto the lifter and get the shell up to where it can be loaded into the chamber.

    I think you're beginning to see the complexity here. One of the reasons you might have had problems with the 21" barrel is the wrong ammunition. Those barrels are designed to use high brass, high pressure buckshot and slugs. The gas ports are sized appropriately and they don't deliver enough gas to run the system if you're using cheap Winchester 100rd #8 birdshot. If you reduce the barrel length to 12", you are probably going to limit it to one or two loads. Lower pressure won't deliver enough gas and it won't run. Too heavy loads will deliver the gas, but they will overpressure the system and the gun may run, but it will beat itself to death.

    Anyway, that is the extent of my knowledge. I KNOW there are people here who know more than I do, both in a general sense and also specific to the 11-87. Good luck with your project!

  3. #3
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  4. #4
    NHShooter might be a good resource:
    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37084-1187P

    His comment from another thread:
    “A handful of years ago I did some work on a 1187 Premiere that was sitting in the safe feeling unloved. I had the stock shortened by an inch (the most that can be chopped off), the 26-inch pressure-compensated barrel cut to 18-3/4" and the RemChokes reinstalled, and a few other parts and pieces. The project worked out well, and the shortened 1187 cycles perfectly with Federal reduced recoil LE 00 9-pellet buck and slugs.”
    Last edited by peterb; 07-13-2019 at 07:29 PM.

  5. #5
    Supporting Business NH Shooter's Avatar
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    Shortened 1187s can be made to operate reliably within limitations. My shortened-from-both-ends Premier handles well for a defensive-use SG and is a blast to shoot.

    First step: what is the marking on the barrel? Some are set up for target loads (large gas ports), some 21" versions for hunting with slugs (small gas ports) and others with large ports and pressure compensation for both target and full power loads (Premier barrels).

    In the photo below, the pressure compensation feature can be seen on the barrel on the bottom: it's essentially a steel clip that works like a pressure relief valve to bleed off excess pressure;

    Name:  1187 barrels.jpg
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    Mine started off at 26" with large ports and pressure compensation, and is marked for use with 2-3/4" and 3" shells. It was shortened to 18-3/4" and functions just fine with Federal LE reduced-recoil 00 buck (9-pellet) and reduced-recoil slugs, but will not cycle the even lighter reduced-recoil 00 buck 8-pellet loads. Of course, full power loads function fine and the pressure compensation feature minimizes beating-up the action. The 1187 is a soft-shooting SG to start with so the 9-pellet reduced-recoil loads are easy on the shoulder.

    Your 28" might be Premier/Field, Trap or Skeet (see chart below). Any can be made to work shortened, but the small gas ports of the Trap barrel may need to be opened to .116 or .120". Just be aware that going much below 18" is going to require full power loads even with larger gas ports to ensure good function. If you stay somewhere between 18 and 21 inches you should have no issues with functioning of the LE reduced-recoil loads, which are ideal for a defensive use SG. Once you identify which barrel you have assumptions can be made about what loads it will cycle reliably with.

    FWIW, the recoil spring assembly extends into the stock. If you remove the butt pad you can take a measurement to see how much can come off the stock, if you wish to shorten it from that end too. I was able to take an inch off of mine, bringing it down to about 12.5 inches LOP.

    Feel free to post specific questions and I'll do my best to help. Good luck!

    Edit: gas port info;

    Model 11-87 Barrels

    12ga 30” Premier/Field - .101” / # 38 (2 ea. barrel)
    12ga 28” Premier/Field - .101” / # 35 (2 ea. barrel)
    12ga 26” Premier/Field - .116” / # 32 (2 ea. barrel)
    12ga 30” Special Purpose - .101” / # 38 (2 ea. barrel)
    12ga 26” Special Purpose - .116” / # 32 (2 ea. barrel)
    12ga 30” Trap - .116” / # 32 (2 ea. barrel)
    12ga 28” Trap - .120” / # 31 (2 ea. barrel)
    12ga 28” Skeet - .125” / 1/8" (2 ea. barrel)
    12ga 21” Spl Purpose Deer .083” / # 25 (2 ea. barrel)
    Last edited by NH Shooter; 07-14-2019 at 04:57 AM.

  6. #6
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    Thank you for your comments, gentlemen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorsai View Post
    First, shotguns are normally expected to run with a variety of ammunition ranging from skeet loads up to slugs and buckshot.
    I wouldn't expect this "shorty" to run everything I manage to stuff into the magazine tube. Hell, it doesn't do it now either with the 21" barrel. I have no hope in hell of getting a 24g skeet load to cycle. A 28g sporting load will cycle if I pull the gun back to my shoulder tightly with both arms, but will fail immediately if using a proper push-pull technique. For reliable cycling, I have to go with a 32g hunting load, full power buckshot load, or full power slug. That's just the way this gun is. If it continues to work that way with the shortened barrel, I don't feel I've lost any capability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorsai View Post
    One of the reasons you might have had problems with the 21" barrel is the wrong ammunition.
    Not as such. While I have tried low pressure ammunition with that barrel and it has indeed failed to feed with it, this came as no surprise to me since the 21" barrel clearly states it is not supposed to be used with low pressure ammunition. My issues with the gun have been related with trying to get a magazine extension to work reliably, and the occasional mystery jam with high power ammunition.

    Quote Originally Posted by NH Shooter View Post
    First step: what is the marking on the barrel? Some are set up for target loads (large gas ports), some 21" versions for hunting with slugs (small gas ports) and others with large ports and pressure compensation for both target and full power loads (Premier barrels).

    In the photo below, the pressure compensation feature can be seen on the barrel on the bottom: it's essentially a steel clip that works like a pressure relief valve to bleed off excess pressure;
    Thank you for the info!

    My 28" barrel is marked for use with either 2 3/4" or 3" shells and has the pressure compensation feature.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    Thank you for the info!

    My 28" barrel is marked for use with either 2 3/4" or 3" shells and has the pressure compensation feature.
    Excellent! At 18-3/4" it should cycle everything but light target loads fine.

    Magazine tube problems - how did you remove the dimples?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by NH Shooter View Post
    Excellent! At 18-3/4" it should cycle everything but light target loads fine.
    Yes, well, the idea was to shorten the barrel to somewhere around 12" to 14"...

    Quote Originally Posted by NH Shooter View Post
    Magazine tube problems - how did you remove the dimples?
    I used a gun smith.

  9. #9
    Supporting Business NH Shooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    Yes, well, the idea was to shorten the barrel to somewhere around 12" to 14"...
    https://www.capitolarmory.com/reming...ce-14-sbs.html

    Gas ports may need to be opened up.

  10. #10
    I don't know if this applies to 11-87's or not.

    Years ago I got an 1100 with a deer barrel. 21" I think. It wouldn't work reliably with low brass loads. The Gunsmiths at Cylinder and Slide worked on it when I was at Second Chance one year. They progressively opened up the gas ports in the barrel until it functioned with low brass. I think the thought at the time was that you couldn't go real short with the barrel because you wouldn't get enough gas for it to work. If it means anything, after years of shooting, the barrel started to peen where the bolt locked up.

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