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Thread: Security guard pulls gun on Lucas County Sheriff's deputy

  1. #21
    He's very lucky.

    The part at the elevator......where he attempted some sort of grab to the deputy (or nervous pat)....is where the line in the sand was. That is the part where I am not sure my restraint would have continued.

    I would have had to weigh if the incompetence and lack of training the guard had was worth risking getting negligently shot by this guy versus a disarm attempt.

    They should go ahead and get a plea bargain in the works and a check printed to make all this go away asap. Opinion only.

  2. #22
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    I’m sure there are more than a few places that limit police carrying. I know our county domestics office (child support) will not anyone in with a weapon besides sheriff deputies assigned to that office. Was the security officer trying to arrest the deputy?

  3. #23
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    A lieutenant from my former agency had a similar issue at the Social Security Administration (though apparently handled with much less drama). After back-and-forth with the Federal Protective Service, he was told that local LEO's cannot carry when not on official business. I suspect common sense prevails in most circumstances. I can understand the argument that an off-duty officer should perhaps not be armed during a contentious hearing of some type, but disarming a uniformed officer purchasing stamps or mailing a package seems a bit much.

    As discussed here and witnessed on the private range my former agency and I use, federal contract security officers can vary quite a bit in quality. Some are highly professional. On the other hand, another one accidentally gunned herself down on the range a few weeks ago.

  4. #24
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnc36rcpd View Post
    As discussed here and witnessed on the private range my former agency and I use, federal contract security officers can vary quite a bit in quality. Some are highly professional. On the other hand, another one accidentally gunned herself down on the range a few weeks ago.
    The stories I've heard from people who train FPS are mind-blowingly bad.
    3/15/2016

  5. #25
    I had to go into a federal building to meet with the local FBI agents. The contracted security wouldn’t initially let me come in armed. The compromise was that they escort me to the FBI office; however, I was allowed to walk out unescorted.

    They had a previous issue with a uniformed cop getting rowdy in the IRS office.

    FPS regularly checks the building and conducts surveys of the security, but the actual physical security is contracted.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  6. #26
    Site Supporter Zincwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlw View Post
    I had to go into a federal building to meet with the local FBI agents. The contracted security wouldn’t initially let me come in armed. The compromise was that they escort me to the FBI office; however, I was allowed to walk out unescorted.

    They had a previous issue with a uniformed cop getting rowdy in the IRS office.

    FPS regularly checks the building and conducts surveys of the security, but the actual physical security is contracted.
    I could understand in sensitive locations and that looked like a good compromise.
    The video...watching that, wow, just wow. That is off the chart.
    (note during the portion in the hallway by the elevator when the SO is trying to leave the security guard actually has his foot in holding the elevator open).
    Last edited by Zincwarrior; 07-11-2019 at 10:50 AM.

  7. #27
    Member Gadfly's Avatar
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    On duty or off, if the Deputy is in a uniform, he will (and should ) be armed. Period.

    Just because he goes "off duty" for a lunch break, coffee, or bathroom trip, he does not disarm. If he has left work in uniform, and is on the way home, stops at the IRS to pick up a form, he may be "off duty", but he is still a highly visible target. If he walked in on a robbery, but he is "off duty", would he just stand there in uniform? Or would he be expected to respond? Do you think the crook would see an empty holster and give the cop a pass? So yes, even on a personal errand, if wearing a uniform, you don't leave the gun in the car.

    Policy for most every agency I have heard of is "if you are marked as LEO, you are armed".

    I wear plain clothes. If I am off duty and have to disarm to enter a place, I don't maintain that target of wearing a uniform. I still try and carry every where I can (as mentioned in the Disney thread from yesterday), but there are still a few places even the badge does not get you into.

    -----------
    Side Note:
    As others have mentioned, there are some screwy internal policies that trip you up. Pre 9/11, the immigration inspectors at Houston Bush Airport could not wear their gun ON DUTY while stamping pass ports. They had to take off the whole gun belt, because it was a "rude way to welcome folks into the US" by having a gun. When they left primary inspection to do other things, they HAD to be armed to roam the airport or work baggage, etc. Stupid policy that 9/11 ended.

    Second side rant:
    HSi/ICE has to work closely with our sister service CIS (Citizenship and immigration services). CIS gives out the benefits (green cards and citizenship), and ICE / HSI enforce the laws surrounding those. Well, CIS has decided its a 'safe space' for aliens, and won't allow HSI or ICE into the building. This came to a head during the San Bernadino terror incident a few years back (December 2, 2015, 14 people were killed and 22 others were seriously injured). The guy who bought the rifles used by the suspect in the attack was scheduled for an appointment at CIS. HSI showed up before hand to grab the guy. CIS refused to let them in the building to arrest a TERROR CONSPIRATOR. Think about how fucked up that policy is. Were the HSI guys supposed to draw down on the contract security guards at CIS to get inside?? Anyway, ICE / HSI is still not allowed in the CIS building. Even to pick up and drop off paperwork, we have to go to the loading docks and get met outside the building. Its ridiculous. Just had to vent about that.
    “A gun is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.” - Shane

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gadfly View Post
    On duty or off, if the Deputy is in a uniform, he will (and should ) be armed. Period.

    Just because he goes "off duty" for a lunch break, coffee, or bathroom trip, he does not disarm. If he has left work in uniform, and is on the way home, stops at the IRS to pick up a form, he may be "off duty", but he is still a highly visible target. If he walked in on a robbery, but he is "off duty", would he just stand there in uniform? Or would he be expected to respond? Do you think the crook would see an empty holster and give the cop a pass? So yes, even on a personal errand, if wearing a uniform, you don't leave the gun in the car.

    Policy for most every agency I have heard of is "if you are marked as LEO, you are armed".

    I wear plain clothes. If I am off duty and have to disarm to enter a place, I don't maintain that target of wearing a uniform. I still try and carry every where I can (as mentioned in the Disney thread from yesterday), but there are still a few places even the badge does not get you into.

    -----------
    Side Note:
    As others have mentioned, there are some screwy internal policies that trip you up. Pre 9/11, the immigration inspectors at Houston Bush Airport could not wear their gun ON DUTY while stamping pass ports. They had to take off the whole gun belt, because it was a "rude way to welcome folks into the US" by having a gun. When they left primary inspection to do other things, they HAD to be armed to roam the airport or work baggage, etc. Stupid policy that 9/11 ended.

    Second side rant:
    HSi/ICE has to work closely with our sister service CIS (Citizenship and immigration services). CIS gives out the benefits (green cards and citizenship), and ICE / HSI enforce the laws surrounding those. Well, CIS has decided its a 'safe space' for aliens, and won't allow HSI or ICE into the building. This came to a head during the San Bernadino terror incident a few years back (December 2, 2015, 14 people were killed and 22 others were seriously injured). The guy who bought the rifles used by the suspect in the attack was scheduled for an appointment at CIS. HSI showed up before hand to grab the guy. CIS refused to let them in the building to arrest a TERROR CONSPIRATOR. Think about how fucked up that policy is. Were the HSI guys supposed to draw down on the contract security guards at CIS to get inside?? Anyway, ICE / HSI is still not allowed in the CIS building. Even to pick up and drop off paperwork, we have to go to the loading docks and get met outside the building. Its ridiculous. Just had to vent about that.
    Some clarifications on your second side rant:

    That policy is CIS’s and it was a CIS supervisor, not a guard that denied access in San Bernardino. In those circumstances arresting the CIS Supervisor for obstruction would not be out of the question. She was subsequently censured by Congress for her actions. US CIS management’s response was the opposite - they gave her an award for “bravery” apparently the San Bernardino terror Attack occurred about a mile and half from the CIS office. She herd about the attack on the news and went out to the parking lot to earn an employee eating lunch in their car in the parking lot. Such bravery......

    CIS’s “safe space” for illegals is not just for Immigration matters and CIS has refused to cooperate in multiple instances of illegals wanted for other felony offenses.

    The real issue is US CIS management have lost sight of the fact their customers are the American people and they serve those customers by screening aliens seeking to live in the US for bad actors. Instead, they have acquired the perverse idea that aliens, illegal and otherwise are their customers.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Zincwarrior View Post
    (note during the portion in the hallway by the elevator when the SO is trying to leave the security guard actually has his foot in holding the elevator open).
    Yes. This is the reason I think he's hosed and the settlement will be quick.

    I've seen cops do it. Tell someone to leave, they head that way but gotta have the last word, and then the cop will follow and prevent them from leaving by telling them they gotta leave over and over again.

    "Hey Sparky....he's leaving.....let him mouth off a little. As long as he ain't breaking a law.....he's leaving right? Or if you have a charge, put him in jail and quit being 'that guy', okay?"

    Do those contract guards have any sort of arrest powers? I'm not familiar with if they do or not in Alabama. I'm leaning towards no.

    I would still like to hear the verbal exchange. But even then, I doubt there was a part that justified the guard clearing leather/kydex. The grabbing and blocking the elevator doors....especially if that part of the building is not in the control of the IRS......and signage is not in place.......well......

    I think it's going to be a learning lesson to say the least.

  10. #30
    I always find it amazing that entities try to have security, particularly armed security, as cheaply as possible and are shocked when something goes awry.
    I was into 10mm Auto before it sold out and went mainstream.

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