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Thread: Security guard pulls gun on Lucas County Sheriff's deputy

  1. #11
    LE Forum Moderator BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farscott View Post
    Serious question: Is a uniformed deputy allowed to carry a weapon in IRS offices while there for personal reasons? I know that law enforcement officers typically have to disarm in federal courtroom buildings -- and that is on duty.

    I know the security guard handled the situation poorly (understatement) but was he correct in his interpretation of the law/regulation that no one except authorized personnel is allowed to be armed in the facility? Is there a clause that allows state and local LE to carry in IRS facilities, especially as the LE was there in a capacity as taxpayer (not on official LE business)?
    I have always been allowed to bypass metal detection and carry in the local federal building by showing my ID or being in uniform.
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  2. #12
    Fornicates with shovels Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    That was handled just right, but I can't take the officer's medical leave and lawsuit seriously.
    I disagree on the first part of your statement. In my head I see the deputy doing a disarm, and then bitch slapping that guard all over the office. That would have been just right.
    I am Jack's complete lack of outrage.

  3. #13
    "Serious question: Is a uniformed deputy allowed to carry a weapon in IRS offices while there for personal reasons?"

    At considerable risk of playing internet lawyer, maybe :-). 18USC930 says:

    "(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
    ...
    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
    (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
    ...
    (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
    ...
    (g) As used in this section:
    (1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties."

    (and there is an 'h' that says it only applies if notice is posted)

    So (d)(1) covers local LEOs if they are on official business. (3) has the 'or other lawful purposes' test. I would certainly argue that an LEO carrying on personal business, in or out of uniform, on or off duty, ought to count as 'other lawful purposes'. But then so would a civilian with a carry permit, and my sense is that they are generally not going to be permitted.

    I was expecting to see one of the exceptions be '...or otherwise permitted by <whoever runs the facility>' language, thus opening the door for an IRS reg allowing a local LEO exception, but I don't see one.


    I'm pretty sure I've seen uniformed LEOs at government offices on personal business. I wonder if no one ever wondered if it was legal. Objecting to LEOs being armed seems so obviously stupid that maybe common sense ruled up til now??? Certainly a restaurant telling uniformed LEOs they aren't welcome is hard to imagine even a few years ago (i.e. the recent Starbucks case).

    Again, not a lawyer. I just went googling expecting to find some exception, and didn't.

  4. #14
    Site Supporter Zincwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    I have always been allowed to bypass metal detection and carry in the local federal building by showing my ID or being in uniform.
    Yes, but can you clarify what is the legal situation here - aka was that just a friendly let through or how does that work? This is not a criticism just a question. Can the local gendarme be armed on fed property? If not, what if there's a police situation?

    I make it a point never have to come in for a chat with the IRS.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    I have always been allowed to bypass metal detection and carry in the local federal building by showing my ID or being in uniform.
    That makes a ton of sense. I cannot imagine not allowing uniformed LE access, but I have seen some pretty stupid restrictions (NJ).

  6. #16
    LE Forum Moderator BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zincwarrior View Post
    Yes, but can you clarify what is the legal situation here - aka was that just a friendly let through or how does that work?
    Nope. I would have figured I would have to disarm but others who'd been for help with VA forms said they didn't. I showed up, asked, and that's what happened. There were both civilian guards and sworn federal officers. I figured they knew better then me on the laws.
    L'otters are not afraid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Maybe with talented students I would lube up with baby oil and then go at it.

  7. #17
    careful what you wish for blues's Avatar
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    It doesn't always matter what the law says, (unfortunately), if it is the policy of the facility. Is it worth fighting over at the given point in time? Probably not.

    I've been called to jury duty here in NC and at the courthouse they had me lock up an item they said could not be carried into the courtroom. I showed them a copy of the law for NC and its courts and they essentially shrugged and said that the policy stood, nonetheless.

    Point is, that when entering a facility I will generally give way (at the moment) and take it up afterward if so inclined.

    This situation is unfortunate in the extreme, but as pointed out earlier in the thread, by and large the security in these buildings are contracted by GSA.

    As regards IRS, my recollection is, (back in the 80's), that IRS made their special agents lock up their guns in the office. They could not walk around with them on their person unless they were going into the field, and even then, if memory serves, they were to sign them out or account for their leaving the office. I've no clue how they handle such these days.
    “Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” - Sun Tzu | "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." - Mike Tyson

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by blues View Post
    It doesn't always matter what the law says, (unfortunately), if it is the policy of the facility. Is it worth fighting over at the given point in time? Probably not.

    I've been called to jury duty here in NC and at the courthouse they had me lock up an item they said could not be carried into the courtroom. I showed them a copy of the law for NC and its courts and they essentially shrugged and said that the policy stood, nonetheless.

    Point is, that when entering a facility I will generally give way (at the moment) and take it up afterward if so inclined.

    This situation is unfortunate in the extreme, but as pointed out earlier in the thread, by and large the security in these buildings are contracted by GSA.

    As regards IRS, my recollection is, (back in the 80's), that IRS made their special agents lock up their guns in the office. They could not walk around with them on their person unless they were going into the field, and even then, if memory serves, they were to sign them out or account for their leaving the office. I've no clue how they handle such these days.
    In my area that appears to no longer be the policy, but based on what I've seen in the gym locker room, maybe it should be.
    I was into 10mm Auto before it sold out and went mainstream.

  9. #19
    To me, the deputy handled it a whole lot better than I would. I would love to hear what was said during the exchange but the deputy's body language certainly didn't set off any alarms with me.

    No matter what the policy is, it also didn't appear that the deputy was doing anything but leaving the facility when the weapon was brandished and aimed at his back. Not real sure how the guard is going to justify that action. As an officer, I have asked or told literally thousands of people to "leave" various facilities and homes. I don't recall ever pulling my gun and pointing it at them as they were doing what I instructed them to do.

    I've had dozens mouth off as they were leaving....but as long as they were "leaving".....I didn't care what they said.....as long as they left and took their drama elsewhere.

    The lawsuit? Personally, I doubt this would have kept me up one single night. I sure wouldn't have lost wages over it. I'd have left, called in to my supervisor to notify, downloaded the body cam footage, filled out a criminal case report, and let the investigators seek a warrant and arrest this guy. Then we would have met again in court....criminal court...and let the judge/jury decide.

    Lack of training.....and getting by on the cheap.......is what this debacle looks like to me.

    Locally, including IRS field offices, we have tons of government and military installations. I've never been asked to disarm at any of them.....other than the local Federal courthouse.

    Regards.

  10. #20
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    There may be some legal confusion about whether or not a police officer can carry a firearm in a federal building (although I have a hard time believing that the officers that would be dispatched to a 911 call at that office can't carry their issued weapons there) but there's most certainly nothing even remotely reasonable about pointing a gun at a uniformed police officer just because he is carrying a firearm.

    That security guard is lucky he didn't get shot in the face.
    3/15/2016

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