Teach me about STI guns

[BigD]

USMS SOG, Riverside County SWAT and Long Beach SWAT are issuing the guns. LAPD has approved the gun for duty use with specialized units including Metro, SIS and SWAT have large groups of buyers. Have we looked at any of the testing data or read why USMS SOG switched to the platform?

Not for nothing, but those units have long favored and issued 1911s. You probably know as well as I do that some orgs have biases toward particular platforms - sometimes for good reasons and sometimes for less defendable reasons (for example “We are SWAT/Special Operations. We are more qualified and need a different pistol to prove it.”)

I’ve not read anything about why USMS SOG switched. If you’ve got info that didn’t come from Buck at STI, then I’d be interested to see it.

I’ll be more impressed when agencies start turning in G17s for STIs.

[JodyH]

I kicked around getting a DVC-C for the past few weeks.
Borrowed a friends 2011 for a few days and remembered why I'm not a fan of anything with a top pivoting grip safety.
Just doing some familiarization shooting everything worked great.
As soon as I ramped up the difficulty on the draw (speed, movement, weird positions etc.) i'd fail to engage the grip safety probably 25% of the time slowing my initial shot considerably.
Getting a really high grip, thumbs forward riding the thumb safety tends to leave a gap right where there needs to be pressure to deactivate the grip safety. At least for my size L/XL but thin hands, maybe if I had more meat on my palms it'd be different.
Of course I could replace/bypass the grip safety with a SVI fixed beavertail but if I was going that direction i'd just buy a Wilson EDC X9 instead (and get a better magazine design IMO).
But neither of those has such a significant advantage over my 19X to make the changeover worth it to me.

[HCM]

I kicked around getting a DVC-C for the past few weeks.
Borrowed a friends 2011 for a few days and remembered why I'm not a fan of anything with a top pivoting grip safety.
Just doing some familiarization shooting everything worked great.
As soon as I ramped up the difficulty on the draw (speed, movement, weird positions etc.) i'd fail to engage the grip safety probably 25% of the time slowing my initial shot considerably.
Getting a really high grip, thumbs forward riding the thumb safety tends to leave a gap right where there needs to be pressure to deactivate the grip safety. At least for my size L/XL but thin hands, maybe if I had more meat on my palms it'd be different.
Of course I could replace/bypass the grip safety with a SVI fixed beavertail but if I was going that direction i'd just buy a Wilson EDC X9 instead (and get a better magazine design IMO).
But neither of those has such a significant advantage over my 19X to make the changeover worth it to me.

Some of that is hand shape as well as size. Despite meaty XXL hands I’ve had that with many 1911s but never with double stack STIs or Paras.

Individual fit is a thing. I shoot G17/45 grips best with the medium beavertail but need the large, or better yet a GFA on G19’s due to the slightly different shape.

[HCM]

You are right that (almost) no one shoots factory ammo in Limited in USPSA. But if it were just ammo related problems,
owners wouldn’t have needed to have Brazos or Dawson do a reliability package on them.

I hate to belabor my point but before everyone that bought a good one replies to tell me so... They are fine pistols and the most popular pistol in Limited. It’s the jump from competition pistols to the tactical/duty world that has me skeptical. Is it possible they can do it Sure. But the jury is not still out. It hasn’t even been selected yet.

Dave Dawson was brought back into STI as part of the new management /culture and the development of the Staccato P as adopted by USMS and other agencies. Dawson has a pretty good understanding of what is needed in a duty gun vs a completion gun. Think of these guns as having a Dawson reliability package out of the box.

Duty ammo or equivalent makes things easier as does the new magazines made by a dedicated magazine company. Why does that matter ? Well part of the complaints about 2011 reliability in completion relates to people trying to get extra rounds in mags of a certain length. The part is making consistent, reliable magazines is difficult. There is a reason big names like Colt, S&W, SIG, Beretta etc all outsource their mag production.

I took an STI factory tour a few years back and all STI mags were being made by a few members of a Vietnamese family in a corner of their shop. It would best be described as the “Gepetto” method.

[HCM]

STIs, dots, light triggers, and other crazy mods help you make the shots that you probably shouldn’t even consider in a real world scenario.

Shots that YOU (or I) shouldn’t consider in a real world scenario but neither of us are shooting 50k rounds per year or having to do hostage rescue.

Dots have other advantages in LE service which is why we will see them continue to develop until they reach the level of reliability we now see on rifle dots.

[Bucky]

Shots that YOU (or I) shouldn’t consider in a real world scenario but neither of us are shooting 50k rounds per year or having to do hostage rescue.

Dots have other advantages in LE service which is why we will see them continue to develop until they reach the level of reliability we now see on rifle dots.

Agree, HRT and the like have different needs, for sure. In their case, if a critical precise shot is needed, I hope a long arm is available. However, I realize you use what you have.

As for the 50K per year, there were a few years back in “the day” where I was darn near close.

[HCM]

Agree, HRT and the like have different needs, for sure. In their case, if a critical precise shot is needed, I hope a long arm is available. However, I realize you use what you have.

As for the 50K per year, there were a few years back in “the day” where I was darn near close.

The USMS SOG is the USMS national tactical team much like HRT. My understanding is they were issuing, or at least authorized SA PRO 1911s off the FBI/DOJ contract.

The USMS has authorized RMRs and DPP for regular deputies, the first federal agency to do so. Their current firearms and tactics staff is pretty forward thinking.

[BigD]

Dave Dawson was brought back into STI as part of the new management /culture and the development of the Staccato P as adopted by USMS and other agencies. Dawson has a pretty good understanding of what is needed in a duty gun vs a completion gun. Think of these guns as having a Dawson reliability package out of the box.

.

Except, according to this thread, Dave Dawson isn’t at STI anymore and wasn’t doing quality control when he was there.

My strong belief is that Dave Dawson could come out of retirement and tune all the STI mags and extractors and case gauge everyone’s ammo before each shift and the Stacatto still wouldn’t match the reliability of a Glock. (That it can’t match the durability of a Glock goes without saying.). The triggers will be nice though.

I say ”strong belief ” because there’s always a chance that STI cracked the code this time around and made improvements to the 1911 platform that no one else has been able to do in 100 plus years.

[JodyH]

I have no doubt STI could make a Staccato P run like a Glock for a federal contract that specified the exact ammunition that was to be utilized for training and carry.
I know many 3-Gun shooters that have ridiculous round counts on their DVC and Edge 9mm's with very few issues under harsh conditions, but their guns have been tuned to one load and one load only and are maintained by someone who gives a shit.
The STI is an enthusiasts pistol, it'll perform perfectly fine when issued to a group like USMS SOG. No way in hell would I issue them to every officer with a pulse in a department and expect them to work.

[HCM]

Except, according to this thread, Dave Dawson isn’t at STI anymore and wasn’t doing quality control when he was there.

My strong belief is that Dave Dawson could come out of retirement and tune all the STI mags and extractors and case gauge everyone’s ammo before each shift and the Stacatto still wouldn’t match the reliability of a Glock. (That it can’t match the durability of a Glock goes without saying.). The triggers will be nice though.

I say ”strong belief ” because there’s always a chance that STI cracked the code this time around and made improvements to the 1911 platform that no one else has been able to do in 100 plus years.

Dave Dawson wasn’t brought back to tune guns, he was brought back to tune their production process. Now that they are making guns “his way” he doesn’t necessarily have to be there- he can just consult if an issue develops.

The standard for a duty grade STI would be to equal the performance and reliability of a 1911 like an SA Pro. No 1911/2011 is gonna be a Glock but then again no Glock is going to have the human factors / shootability of a 1911/2011.

You set priorities and make choices accordingly.?