Cranky caliber post.

[YVK]

. One of the first was STI 2011 style guns chambered in...40 S&W.

Gamers.

[DocGKR]

In the late 1980's and early 1990's, most 9mm loadings offered relatively poor terminal performance, particularly through intermediate barriers--.45 Auto was only a bit better. Conversely, almost all .40 S&W ammo was designed after the Army Wound Ballistics Lab, FBI BRF, and IWBA had identified ideal characteristics for defensive handgun ammunition--as a result, a lot of .40 S&W ammo outperformed both 9 mm and .45 Auto at that time. As older loadings of 9mm and .45 Auto fell by the wayside and ammo engineers developed new reliable barrier blind handgun offerings for the major service calibers, it quickly became apparent that there was relatively minimal difference in terminal performance between calibers; "shootability", cost, and human factors became more important selection criteria when choosing a defensive handgun for duty use.

[Tom Duffy]

I think TCinVA's post deserves it's own sticky!

[Chuck Haggard]

If the Miami incident had involved a .45acp Silvertip instead of a 9mm people would have attacked the bullet, not the caliber, but "9mm sucks" because emotion trumps logic for way too many people.

Delta started to get away from the 1911 after the Blackhawk Down fight according to personal conversation with Kyle Lamb. Several dudes in that fight had 1911s that were dead in the water after fast roping into the target due to dust. Kyle will tell you that 1911s are not suitable for a austere environment, he's very vocal about cops and military not using 1911s.

Before somebody says "muh two world wars!", nobody carries a 1911s chamber empty in a flap holster anymore, and 1911s were only legendary because literally everything else back then sucked in comparison.

Pannone reports that the unit has been very satisfied with both 9mm NATO ball and Federal EFMJ in the incidents where they'd used said ammo.

To steal a quote from a member here who may not be able to say it himself open source, he's been around to have shot or seen shot more than 20 bad guys, all with 9mm ball from handguns. "None of them were unimpressed with the cartridge".

To steal a quote from Pat Rogers, ref being issued .38 SWCs, "They worked pretty good, if you could shoot". The secret is that nothing works if you can't.

[Chuck Haggard]

“…there is no appreciable difference in the effectiveness of the 9 mm and the .45 ACP cartridges.”
Vincent J. M. Di Maio, GUNSHOT WOUNDS: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques SECOND EDITION, Page 150.

[Robinson]

Before somebody says "muh two world wars!", nobody carries a 1911s chamber empty in a flap holster anymore, and 1911s were only legendary because literally everything else back then sucked in comparison.

There also wasn't the obsession with tight slide to frame fit on 1911s back then. It actually goes against the original build philosophy. 1911s don't need to rattle like a marble in a tin can in order to run, but they don't need to be "hard fit" in order to be accurate either. I have no idea where the Unit guns fit into that spectrum, but they were probably built tighter than world war era guns because "custom".

[TC215]

There also wasn't the obsession with tight slide to frame fit on 1911s back then. It actually goes against the original build philosophy. 1911s don't need to rattle like a marble in a tin can in order to run, but they don't need to be "hard fit" in order to be accurate either. I have no idea where the Unit guns fit into that spectrum, but they were probably built tighter than world war era guns because "custom".

I listened to a Seeklander podcast with Pat Mac the other day, and Pat was talking about how well their 1911's ran in the early 2000's. I'm guessing they weren't Les Baer-tight.

[Robinson]

I listened to a Seeklander podcast with Pat Mac the other day, and Pat was talking about how well their 1911's ran in the early 2000's. I'm guessing they weren't Les Baer-tight.

Some of those may have been the guns they got from Springfield Armory with the buried adjustable rear sights. From what I've seen in the public domain those were pretty cool guns. The TRP Operator is sort of a descendant of those guns from what I've read. Could be just an internet rumor though.

[Darth_Uno]

To steal a quote from Pat Rogers, ref being issued .38 SWCs, "They worked pretty good, if you could shoot". The secret is that nothing works if you can't.

A very good friend of mine who has been places and done things told me just last week that nobody he’s shot has given much consideration to whether it’s been 9, or .40, or .45, or ball, or hollow point.

I’m not just parroting what I heard. Well I am, but it’s someone whose opinion I respect very much.

[BehindBlueI's]

So I used to really really really be a .45 guy. Then I saw a couple hundred people shot with handguns. I pretty quickly figured out that as long as the particular bullet would break bone and was hard to deflect by teeth, skulls, forearms, etc. that it would drop people if you put the bullet where it needed to go. I'm now caliber agnostic as far as the common duty calibers go. I'll carry whatever. Currently a 9mm. Not a fan of rimfire handguns or "shotgun" handguns.