Cranky caliber post.

[Trooper224]

Internet win for the week for TCinVA for that awesome post.

Runner up status to Greg Bell, because he mentioned .41AE.

[Greg Bell]

.41 AE Super, you heard it here first.

I would like to point out that I today I shot 150 rounds through my Beretta 92, 50 through my shield and 75 through my HK UsP .45. I’m good no matter who is right. Unless it is somehow 5.7.

[TCinVA]

So what you're saying is...you have to hit things in order for bullets to work? Damn. That's some new fangled thinkin' right there. Ain't nobody told me that before. I thought you just fired willy nilly to people fell over.

A .45 doesn't just kill a dude. It goes back in time and kills his ancestors, wiping him entirely from humanity.

[TCinVA]

.41 AE Super, you heard it here first.

I would like to point out that I Shot 150 rounds through my Beretta 92, 50 through my shield and 75 through my HK UsP .45. I’m good no matter who is right. Unless it is somehow 5.7.

5.7 is only suitable for old women and Stargate weebs who are intent on justifying their choice with the Fort Hood murders.

[Sammy1]

If that's the video I'm thinking of.

The first officer fires several times and appears to only hit once, maybe twice, in the torso, both shots were likely low, since the suspect was running towards the officer and the officer was back pedaling.

The second officer put him down, by actually shooting him once, in the head.

If you shoot the guy in the head, it tends to work well.

Someone around here has a sig quote to the effect of, "I had an ER nurse in my class, who only took headshots. When I asked her why, she said, "I've never seen someone shot in the head fight in the ER." Point taken."

The idea that 9mm was a "poor stopper" is really a misunderstanding of ballistics and incapacitation. Why did/does .45 ball work better than 9mm ball at shooting people? Because the .45 stops inside. It deposits all of its available energy into the target, where the 9mm does not. Same with 125-grain SJHP .357, which did so by using soft'ish lead and expanding. No long likes shooting people with 158-grain LRN .357s. That's a waste. Once we got reliable 9mm HPs that expand and stop inside, there is no longer a gap in efficacy, between virtually any handgun.

And they still all suck compared to a rifle or shotgun.

The rise of PCCs or "re-emergence" of SMGs has nothing to do with efficacy in shooting. They're all gaming guns. They are for training rifle skills using pistol ranges and targets or for competing. It's not an and/or argument. We've had this discussion before, the only reason to choose a PCC over a pistol, is if you do not have a rifle or shotgun handy to use. I love my little 9mm AR, it shoots great and is fun and cheap to shoot. It's fine as a hunting tool for any small sized game within 150 yards. If I use it in a defensive role or to hunt mid-sized game, I load hot +P Barnes or Lehigh bullets in it, because it's not the optimal tool, you have to be choosy with your ammo and shot placement. That means it sucks compared to another option.

The NYPD stakeout squad had a famous case of 11 rounds to the head. The two stakeout cops figured he was dead and called it in. Later, the suspect sat up and sneezed out a bullet. He walked to the ambulance. All eleven rounds of 38 spl. traveled around his cranium never penetrating it. When we trained with Phil Singleton his emphasis ws the open mouth shot and later, NTOA came out with the T- triangle which was the eyebrows down to the upper lip.

[TC215]

Delta did indeed end up with .40...but Delta ended up with .40 back in the late 90's. They had formed using 1911s in .45 ACP and had been using them since. They had found that keeping a fleet of custom 1911 pistols up and running sucked and the limited capacity of the 1911 was kind of a problem when part of your mission was going on to aircraft to shoot terrorists in the face before they could kill everybody on the plane.

They experimented with a number of different options. One of the first was STI 2011 style guns chambered in...40 S&W.

Not that it matters, but my understanding is that the .40 caliber Glocks came about in the early 2000’s (2003 or 2004, maybe?). The STI’s were in the 2006 timeframe.

I don’t have firsthand contact with any Delta guys, but I do have contact with a couple guys that used to work for us that are now on a team/unit that would know.

[JAD]

? Because the .45 stops inside. It deposits all of its available energy into the target, where the 9mm does not.

Were you being serious?

[BehindBlueI's]

Were you being serious?

I was about to ask the same thing.

[TCinVA]

Not that it matters, but my understanding is that the .40 caliber Glocks came about in the early 2000’s (2003 or 2004, maybe?). The STI’s were in the 2006 timeframe.

I don’t have firsthand contact with any Delta guys, but I do have contact with a couple guys that used to work for us that are now on a team/unit that would know.

I believe the Glocks came after the competition inspired double stack 1911-style pistols didn’t work out so good

It wouldn’t surprise me if they tried raceguns again after the first attempt with them in the late 90’s

[Greg Bell]

The setup I remember them running in the mid 00s was a 40 Glock with an Aimpoint, which I gather was for shooting people in the face on airplanes. I think they also got Glock to run them some tan mags.