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Thread: quickest/cheapest route to USPSA PCC from where I am now

  1. #31
    How high does the berm need to be? The berm is your range's berm, it is how high the range's berm is, not an anthill in the middle of the bay
    How close to muzzling people is ok when uncasing? How close to 180 is OK? If someone is muzzled it's a DQ, if not it isn't.
    Does the backstop need to be bulletproof? the backstop is your range's backstop, is your range's backstop bulletproof?
    What exactly does "inserted" mean for a chamber flag? It's either in or out, if they are muzzling someone it doesn't matter, if they are walking around not shooting it needs to be there. It gets removed at make ready and inserted at hammer down.


    8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster/flag his firearm. A carbine must then be transported with the muzzle reasonably vertically up or down,while scoring is done, and then off the stage to a rack or case. Flagged carbines may also be cased at this time and transported off the stage in the case. When casing PCC’s, the muzzle must point at a side berm or backstop. Failure to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing will result in a DQ per 10.5.19

    Here's definition of a berm for you:

    Berm- A raised structure of sand, soil, or other materials used to contain bullets and/or to separate one shooting bay and/or COF from another.


    I'm not at your match, but "PCC bench" and people muzzling each other without getting DQ'd sounds more like a nobody knows and enforces the rules issue than a USPSA PCC issue. The rulebook is online, I'm not going to paste the whole thing here.

    I'ev shot a couple 4 stage local matches with a PCC, but for the record, I don't care if PCC exists or not. Since it does, and I don't want to get muzzled either, it makes sense to know the rules and enforce them. If there are problems with your match, talk to who runs it about the rules. If that doesn't work have your area director talk to them, or talk to someone at NROI.

    Are there RO classes offered in the area? Are the people who run matches RO's? Are you an RO? Can you help them run a safe match?

  2. #32
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    @bofe954, I can see how you might get the impression that the club is at fault for not enforcing the rules. That's not the case at all. This club hosts Level 2 and Level 3 matches, and has a NROI Range Master / RM Instructor. The MD has his act together, and was on my squad when all this happened.

    The problem is with poorly written PCC rules and inadequate safe areas for PCCs.

    Handguns can only be handled in a safe area, which typically include a table with the safe direction and boundaries clearly shown.

    As you can see from the definition of berm in A3 that you posted above, a berm can be simply a separator between bays rather than a hard bulletproof barrier. This leads to people uncasing and handling their PCCs with muzzle pointed down at a low berm while people are visible directly behind the berm. This isn't against the rules, but it should be.

    Chamber flags for PCC don't have to be actually in the chamber. This means that people can use any object that holds the bolt out of battery as a chamber flag.

    So, we have PCC shooters handling their guns in places that weren't designed as safe areas, with muzzles close to sweeping people, without direct supervision of an RO, and without a chamber flag that prevents a round from being in the chamber. That's not a solid safety protocol.

    I'll add a story to underscore this. My buddy was shooting his PCC at a match, and when he finished a stage he dropped the mag, racked the bolt, dropped the bolt, and pulled the trigger. BANG. DQ. His extractor had jumped the case rim and left a round in the chamber. Without a true chamber flag, he would have been one RO mistake (forgetting to say 'hammer down' before saying 'flag') away from walking around with a chambered round in his PCC. This makes me cringe, thinking about how inadequate the berm procedure is.

    On the other hand, if I somehow come off a stage with a round in my handgun's chamber, there are only two places I would be handing that gun: a safety area with hardened backstop, or at the next stage where an RO would be there to DQ me.
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 07-15-2019 at 10:58 PM.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    @bofe954, I can see how you might get the impression that the club is at fault for not enforcing the rules. That's not the case at all. This club hosts Level 2 and Level 3 matches, and has a NROI Range Master / RM Instructor. The MD has his act together, and was on my squad when all this happened.

    If the MD was on your squad, you were swept, and the shooter was not DQ'd, the MD made a mistake, period, read the rule. There is no exemption for muzzling someone with a PCC

    The problem is with poorly written PCC rules and inadequate safe areas for PCCs.

    Handguns can only be handled in a safe area, which typically include a table with the safe direction and boundaries clearly shown.

    As you can see from the definition of berm in A3 that you posted above, a berm can be simply a separator between bays rather than a hard bulletproof barrier. This leads to people uncasing and handling their PCCs with muzzle pointed down at a low berm while people are visible directly behind the berm. This isn't against the rules, but it should be.

    Chamber flags for PCC don't have to be actually in the chamber. This means that people can use any object that holds the bolt out of battery as a chamber flag.

    So, we have PCC shooters handling their guns in places that weren't designed as safe areas, with muzzles close to sweeping people, without direct supervision of an RO, and without a chamber flag that prevents a round from being in the chamber. That's not a solid safety protocol.

    I'll add a story to underscore this. My buddy was shooting his PCC at a match, and when he finished a stage he dropped the mag, racked the bolt, dropped the bolt, and pulled the trigger. BANG. DQ. His extractor had jumped the case rim and left a round in the chamber. Without a true chamber flag, he would have been one RO mistake (forgetting to say 'hammer down' before saying 'flag') away from walking around with a chambered round in his PCC. This makes me cringe, thinking about how inadequate the berm procedure is.

    I have seen the same thing happen with pistols, the shooter needs to see an empty chamber, that's why RO's tell people to slow down during unload and show clear. If the shooter is irresponsible, it doesn't matter what kind of gun they have.

    On the other hand, if I somehow come off a stage with a round in my handgun's chamber, there are only two places I would be handing that gun: a safety area with hardened backstop, or at the next stage where an RO would be there to DQ me.
    From the rule I posted above "Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing or removing from/placing on conveyances only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer."

    There is no handling, you remove the PCC from the case, chamber flag is in it. You then point the barrel straight up or straight down. If there is a round next to the chamber flag it will be there until the RO tells you to make ready, at which point it will be found and you will DQ. After the hammer down flag is back in, PCC walked back to the berm and cased. The only time anyone should be messing with a bolt, dryfiring, messing with a dot is in the safety area. Same as pistol. Read the rule. Your berm situation sounds odd to me, but if they uncase into a berm and muzzle someone tipping up the PCC they are still DQ'd. If I were uncasing on your range, I'd want to make sure no one could get in front of my muzzle while I was uncasing.

    I'm really not trying to be a condescending asshole about this, but getting muzzled at a match is pretty much the definition of "problem with the match" especially if nothing is being done to fix it. It isn't PCC's fault, the rules are clear.
    Last edited by bofe954; 07-16-2019 at 04:29 PM.

  4. #34
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    I don't want to sidetrack this thread anymore than we already have. To answer your points: MD didn't see me get swept. I dealt with that myself in a conversation with the shooter. I made the call not to ask that she be DQed for something only I saw. We disagree about whether PCC uncasing at the berm is unsafe. I think it is, and have made my opinion clear to the MD. He agrees with me--even as a PCC shooter, but the rules are what they are. The berms at this range are similar to what I've seen at many other ranges that host USPSA. They are tall toward the targets, and not-so-tall near the back.
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 07-16-2019 at 04:43 PM.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  5. #35
    Site Supporter jandbj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    This would seem to be the cheapest route, but I'm not sure even the 7" version would be short enough. Theoretically though I could just detach the current handguard and drop this one in it's place, and shoot the matches unsuppressed.

    of course, for how often I actually shoot any of this, I could also probably just take my current handguard to the workshop and lop off the requisite amount...
    https://www.samson-mfg.com/sx-m-lok-...clearance.html
    Same barrel nut, perhaps?
    https://www.kakindustry.com/ar-15-pa...slim-flash-can

  6. #36
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Still kinda trying to figure this out (pre-new years resolution is to get to some matches next year).

    Option 1: get a 10.5" upper and one new optic (current optic is dead) and just take the can on/off for matches
    • upside is least amount of added junk in the house (I'd try to sell or give away the current 7" upper)
    • downsides would be potential zero shift when I want to go from shooting 'coons in the yard to shooting cardboard and steel at the range



    Option 2: get a 12-16" upper and a new optic for both uppers and just swap the uppers back and forth
    • upside is having a more dedicated solution for each application
    • downside is primarily cost, plus just genera bulk
    • also, what is that abortion on the muzzle of the 12"?

  7. #37
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    I would go with 2 uppers and optimize each for the "dedicated" task.

  8. #38
    OP:
    I took an Aimpoint H-2 off a backup 223 Colt that was zeroed for 50 yards. With NO adjustments it zeroed at 30 yards on a Colt 9. If you are going to shoot USPSA, action steel or SC picking a zero is preference, not a fixed rule. 30 was fine with me and I went back and forth with the H-2 until I found a dedicated Aimpoint.
    As far as a SBR goes, look around at matches…very few people use SBRs. If it made any significant difference all the shooters would be E-filing

  9. #39
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Decided that (a) the timing of these events makes is relatively unlikely I'll get to one soon, but that I'd like to have a gun I *could* shoot in one if the need arises. Also decided that one gun/upper is better than two, and since my real "need" is homestead critter control it's more important to have the can mounted.

    https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...165449633.html

    All of which led me to just now place the order for the 1.05" PSA upper. Optic TBD.
    Last edited by rob_s; 01-12-2020 at 08:54 AM.

  10. #40
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Looking at replacement optics, keeping in mind my "dual purpose" usage. it appears that the C-More is the optic of b=choice for gaming, followed by the Holosun 510C. Given that I'm going to be using this for critter control, and then hopefully some games, would the latter be a slightly more "robust" or otherwise better or more flexible option for home use?

    They seem to be around the same price. I wouldn't be buying a new optic at all if the one currently on the gun wasn't totally dead.

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