Trying to Touch the Magic: 4TM

[willie]

Elsewhere I have been accused of trolling when such was not my intent. Perhaps the most unusual instance was a discussion on capital punishment. I may know more about this topic than most. I pointed out that one role of the chaplain is to convince the poor bastard that he would soon go to a better place. Thus convinced, the condemned is less likely to fight those who are about to kill him. I remember one event where the condemned was improperly restrained and was wiggling out of an upper restraint. The chaplain sat on him. I was not present.

[wvincent]

You don't need to go to other forums to see it. You can see it right here.

Really? Which SME's would that be? Oh wait, we don't have titled SME's here anymore. Just like there is no post count either. This is about as level of a playing field as one can find in a forum.
I've been here awhile, one thing I have noticed is you can respectfully disagree with ANYONE here, and not have to be watching for Ban Hammer coming at you. It was designed this way, and has kept pretty true to mission.
If you find a better one, shoot me the link, as would be really interested.

Disclaimer: The Mod's here really are shit

[Guinnessman]

Really? Which SME's would that be? Oh wait, we don't have titled SME's here anymore. Just like there is no post count either. This is about as level of a playing field as one can find in a forum.
I've been here awhile, one thing I have noticed is you can respectfully disagree with ANYONE here, and not have to be watching for Ban Hammer coming at you. It was designed this way, and has kept pretty true to mission.
If you find a better one, shoot me the link, as would be really interested.

Disclaimer: The Mod's here really are shit

Do we still have “Mods” here?

[Clusterfrack]

Can we get this thread back on track? I’m hoping we can discuss Clark’s post some more.

I’ve trained with some of the top names in defensive and competitive shooting, and also some in combatives. Some of the classes and seminars were truly excellent, but others weren’t, if learning is the primary goal. Entertaining and challenging, but not a good skill building experience. When I compare the big name classes to ones I’ve done with less famous people, I find that there’s little correlation between instructor fame and learning outcome.

[Borderland]

Really? Which SME's would that be? Oh wait, we don't have titled SME's here anymore. Just like there is no post count either. This is about as level of a playing field as one can find in a forum.
I've been here awhile, one thing I have noticed is you can respectfully disagree with ANYONE here, and not have to be watching for Ban Hammer coming at you. It was designed this way, and has kept pretty true to mission.
If you find a better one, shoot me the link, as would be really interested.

Disclaimer: The Mod's here really are shit

I don't disagree with that as I'm a supporter. It's the best one around. I've been threatened with the dreaded ban many times on other forums and those forums are nothing more than echo chambers. Some are dying because of it.

But we were discussing the 4TM disorder, not the management. My comment was directed to that.

People who train sometimes have a very narrow focus and they don't like criticism of their programs or the gear they promote. That was the entire basis of the 4TM post. It must be hell being a trainer and having to defend both your reasoning and gear selection. Somebody is always going to question that once they reach a certain proficiency level.

[Clark Jackson]

4TM = Self-Delusion of talent/skill and efforts to convince others that you possess said talent/skill.

Unfortunately like most pop-psychology terms this one conflates the conmen who are running the show and those who follow.

Does it though?

There are conmen/women on both sides of the equation and that's just one facet to 4TM.

There are also legitimate people "running the show" who - despite their intentions - have 4TMers following them and visa versa. 4TM is more complicated than just "conmen" and their followers.

Thanks for giving me the rad props of creating a "pop-psychology term," but not really mine. I heard it from a friend in a similar context almost a decade ago and I just adapted it to some of my thoughts on today's culture.

However, I will soon start a training company and/or be an internet "influencer" and charge a premium rate because I can list "creator of pop-psychology term '4TM'" in my CV. In fact, I should probably TM it just for extra legitness... I hear that's a thing now-a-days.

But seriously, how does 4TM conflate the "conmen" from those who follow? Genuinely interested in your perspective.

[Clark Jackson]

Can we get this thread back on track? I’m hoping we can discuss Clark’s post some more.

When I compare the big name classes to ones I’ve done with less famous people, I find that there’s little correlation between instructor fame and learning outcome.

Agree all. The world of social media (read: fantasy-land) has created the WoZ resume (WoZ = Wizard of Oz).

The WoZ resume is a resume comprised of part truth, part illusion, and part pseudo-celebrity. The right beard, tattoos, clothes, gear, and loyal disciples can lead many down the road of "this guy must be good" when, in fact, they are just another modern take on the Wizard of Oz.

Solid information is solid information. It should not matter who presents it. However, 4TM is more than con men and those conned or those who willing followed knowing it was a con.

Information overload/super-saturation is a real thing. Many do not have the time and/or mental agility to navigate everything out there and even those who do sometimes fall victim to a "con man" or cult of personality. It happens. Most people cannot hold auditions for their instructors. In other words, most can't "test drive" before buying.

In the absence of some sort of regulating body to keep everyone honest there are the occasional dice rolls. I don't know about others, but I prefer rolling loaded dice in my favor. That's why I joined PF and that's why I listen to a lot of people who don't fit today's "training expert" personas.

My single most influential mentor is someone you'd never pick out of a crowd if you conjured up today's image of super high speed or super bad ass dude. Ironically, that's because the idea (read: Hollywood) of a super high speed or super bad ass dude vs. the reality of that dude have never truly been reconciled throughout human history.

There are old cliches that routinely warn us about some of the trappings of 4TM such as: "Don't judge a book by it's cover,;" or "Never underestimate..." but we don't listen. We're people and people are fickle idiots, all of us.

I wish there were more cold hard call-outs on legitimate forums (like PF) of bad actors within the industry. Societal pressure is one of the best ways to fight anything including 4TM.

4TM must become socially unacceptable if it is to ever go away or diminish. It's the law of supply and demand.

[Tamara]

I wish there were more cold hard call-outs on legitimate forums (like PF) of bad actors within the industry. Societal pressure is one of the best ways to fight anything including 4TM.

This just plays into the "outsider" or "iconoclast" marketing of several.

[RevolverRob]

Does it though?

It does conflate them, because it doesn't focus on a clear understanding of the varied motivations of both the people trying to "touch" the magic and those "providing" the magic. Some are innocent and some are deliberate in obfuscating reality.

I think it would be far more useful to dissect the motivations for both cultists and cult leaders. And it's probably best to do it just like that and use the psychological terms appropriate to that.

As it is, what you've effectively circumscribed with "4TMer" is...person susceptible to become a cult member and brainwashed cult member.

Everyone else figures out that "magic" isn't actually magical and is instead simply ignorance of something. Many things look like black boxes when you're ignorant to them. This is why people believe in conspiracy theories like we didn't land on the moon.

[Clark Jackson]

This just plays into the "outsider" or "iconoclast" marketing of several.

I don't think it plays into those people because those people are also 4TMers. The concept of 4TM should be used (by those not 4TMing) to identify, isolate, and by-pass the "outsider" and "iconoclast" as well. However, you bring up a good point for discussion.

Anyone who tells you that they are an "outsider" or "iconoclast" for marketing purposes (read: to enrich themselves) is most definitely arrogant and quite likely a megalomaniac.

4TM doesn't just affect those attending training as it also afflicts those providing it.

I would hope that knowing and understanding 4TM would provide someone with the ability to avoid those who sell themselves as either "the magic" or as "the anti-magic," and instead force them to learn from those who provide solid information regardless of the ancillary glitter.

Lastly, I do not dispute there are those out there selling themselves as the "iconoclast" or "outsider" and therefore people should listen to and pay them for their knowledge. If you know of any in particular please name names as that can only help the overall training community.