.45 Colt Duty Revolvers

[03RN]

This probably should be it's own thread but I'll go ahead and ask.

For those of you that ran the .45 Colt on duty, if 10mm revolvers had been a thing back then would the .45 Colt still have been the preferred choice? Let's assume something like a 6 shot GP that used the same extraction system the 9mm Six series did so moon clips were not required and the department was supplying the ammo. Maybe not full house Norma spec loads but something between those and .40 S&W.

Or would this "what if" be better considered as a .357 or 10mm?

I think the 10mm is better compared to the .357 and the .357 outclasses it. The only thing 10mm does better is related to semi auto selection.

[03RN]

This thread has me itching to load up all my .45 Colt brass.

[Dagga Boy]

Can you expound on this, please? I’m not very well versed in wheelgun calibers, but this thread has been thoroughly educational and enjoyable.


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.41 Mag was an almost optimal Police cartridge for the time in an era of larger cops who were capable of managing an N frame gun. You got a cartridge that was a bit of a compromise on velocity and girth. The issue was the Model 57 was a solid gun for those wanting to run full house Magnums. The big potential was in development of the Model 58, but never developing a good Police load. A 3 inch round butt 58 and a 4 inch square butt running a 200 grain performance bullet at around a 1000 FPS would have been about perfect. The issue was the folks who all wanted to be Dirty Harry with .44 Mags killed the .41 Magnum. A vast majority of those carrying .44 Mags could not shoot them worth a damn. The reality is that smart folks knew that like .45 Colt, .44 Special was a great round and much more in line for LE work. A .41 Police load that fell between the big bore specials and Magnum loads would have been fantastic.

[OlongJohnson]

Anecdote alert:

Overheard in gun store, cop to clerk and customers:
"The .44 magnum is too high velocity, the bullet doesn't stay in a man long enough to hurt him. "

[sarcasm] Maybe that's why .223 just won't put down a bad guy. It's waaaay faster than a .44 Magnum. [/sarcasm]

[Fordtough25]

This thread is most excellent and interesting, I wish I had the time and money to create a large revolver collection to shoot and enjoy. There's no way now, I am lucky to have three to shoot! Thanks for the info and stories guys!

[Dave T]

When Elmer Keith and Bill Jordan (and Skeeter Skelton may have had a hand, or word in there too) were cooking up the idea of the 41 Mag it was supposed to be a manageable medium bore. The folks at S&W got it mostly right in that there was a "duty gun" in the M-58, and then a sportsman's gun in the M-57. And the ammo makers developed two rounds to match the two guns. Unfortunately the police load was about 100 fps too hot and leaded badly. The 58 I had for a brief while was starting to lead after one cylinder of the factory lead SWC load. But the killing stroke for this cartridge as a police round was when, as someone has already said, everyone wanted to be Dirty Harry and tried carrying and qualifying with the factory "Magnum" loading. Very few cops could handle the 210g JHP at ~1300 fps in the N-frame S&W.

Very briefly, before I qualified with a Government Model and became a 45 ACP user for the next 30 years, I carried a 41 Mag loaded with my own hand loads. That was a 215g hard cast SWC, sized properly for the throats, and going 850-900 fps. When the department started making noises about "factory ammo only" it pushed me toward the semi auto. I was reading a lot of Jeff Cooper's stuff by then so it didn't take much to go toward the 45 ACP.

Dave

[John Hearne]

This is a fascinating thread. I carried a .357 revolver for my first seven years. I now feel slighted that it wasn't a .45 Long Colt.

[Wayne Dobbs]

When Elmer Keith and Bill Jordan (and Skeeter Skelton may have had a hand, or word in there too) were cooking up the idea of the 41 Mag it was supposed to be a manageable medium bore. The folks at S&W got it mostly right in that there was a "duty gun" in the M-58, and then a sportsman's gun in the M-57. And the ammo makers developed two rounds to match the two guns. Unfortunately the police load was about 100 fps too hot and leaded badly. The 58 I had for a brief while was starting to lead after one cylinder of the factory lead SWC load. But the killing stroke for this cartridge as a police round was when, as someone has already said, everyone wanted to be Dirty Harry and tried carrying and qualifying with the factory "Magnum" loading. Very few cops could handle the 210g JHP at ~1300 fps in the N-frame S&W.

Very briefly, before I qualified with a Government Model and became a 45 ACP user for the next 30 years, I carried a 41 Mag loaded with my own hand loads. That was a 215g hard cast SWC, sized properly for the throats, and going 850-900 fps. When the department started making noises about "factory ammo only" it pushed me toward the semi auto. I was reading a lot of Jeff Cooper's stuff by then so it didn't take much to go toward the 45 ACP.

Dave

There was a significant dimensional issue between Remington and Winchester on the 210 LSWC load also. Remington's was undersized for throats and leaded horribly. The less prevalent WW load was properly sized and was much more accurate and didn't lead. Unfortunately, Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet and we couldn't order ammo like we do now. The .41 Magnum got a bit of new life for a while in the 80s when S&W came with the 657 and Winchester introduced a very effective 175 STHP load. However, the great shift to autopistols was underway and the whole thing became moot. It was truly a privilege to have grown up in an LE career with all those great revolvers and revolver users. I wish I could time travel and spend time with some of those great trainers, gunfighters and most of all, the master armorers and pistolsmiths of that era!

[HCM]

This probably should be it's own thread but I'll go ahead and ask.

For those of you that ran the .45 Colt on duty, if 10mm revolvers had been a thing back then would the .45 Colt still have been the preferred choice? Let's assume something like a 6 shot GP that used the same extraction system the 9mm Six series did so moon clips were not required and the department was supplying the ammo. Maybe not full house Norma spec loads but something between those and .40 S&W.

Or would this "what if" be better considered as a .357 or 10mm?

Realistically 10mm revolvers use moon clips. None of the no clip systems for 9mm from Ruger or S&W proved feasible in actual use. I recall Mas at one time was fond of 45acp revolvers due to the quick reload moon clips afforded. However, the general consensus is Moon clips are fine for the range but it only takes a very slight bend to make the gun inoperable.

[HCM]

There was a significant dimensional issue between Remington and Winchester on the 210 LSWC load also. Remington's was undersized for throats and leaded horribly. The less prevalent WW load was properly sized and was much more accurate and didn't lead. Unfortunately, Al Gore hadn't invented the internet and we couldn't order ammo like we do now. The .41 Magnum got a bit of new life for a while in the 80s when S&W came with the 657 and Winchester introduced a very effective 175 STHP load. However, the great shift to autopistols was underway and the whole thing became moot. It was truly a privilege to have grown up in an LE career with all those great revolvers and revolver users. I wish I could time travel and spend time with some of those great trainers, gunfighters and most of all, the master armorers and pistolsmiths of that era!

The owner of one of my local ranges was SAPD when they issued the 58. He says the leading with the Remington police load was so problematic he and many others went back to carrying personally owned .357s.