How proficient were the man killers of old?

[Dagga Boy]

Jim, thank you for mentioning Bodie. I have spent a lot of life there. I was fascinated as a kid (when the road to get there was all dirt). It was a way to get some reality to the westerns we lived as kids. Where I really appreciated Bodie was as an adult cop. Many who follow me will hear “this is all cyclical and it ain’t new”. Bodie was like many inner city crap holes of today. Lots of violence, lots of hype, and lots of not very technically competent folks killing each other with sheer violent will rather than proficiency. These folks were zapping each other often, as well as missing often. Much came down to efficiency and expertise in application. The longer you could survive failure, the better you got at not failing in the reality of the firearms competition with no rules, no timers and second place being a real bad place to be. “Cheating” outweighed skill. Note that many of the greatest skilled gunman were felled with ambush shots in the back. In my studies of highly efficient gunfighters of the modern era I found most with multiple shootings shared a trait that they all had only one that started from the holster. They found getting WAY ahead of a problem and starting gun in hand was one of the biggest advantages they could get.

[Jim Watson]

I visited Bodie in 1994 on a day off from an engineering project in Hawthorne, Nev. and got the tour with the story of Billy Bodie who burned 90% of the town out of disappointment over being served green Jello instead of cake and ice cream at a birthday party. But that was in 1932, depth of the Depression and long past the tough but prosperous mining town era.

Hawthorne, Nev. has a rather nice county museum. Only a couple of well worn frontier era guns that I recall but one was notable. A 7 1/2" SAA has a rifle type ivory bead front sight dovetailed in, instead of the stock "thumbnail" blade.
So there was one Westerner who was taking good aim.

[Duces Tecum]

I download stuff and transfer by USB. I don't want Amazon reaching into my Kindle and yanking things I've paid for.

But when I went to download it, I got a warning that the book wasn't compatible with any of my devices.

So to hell with it.

Raises hand: "Yeah! Me, too!"

I had several e-books on what I thought was "my" Kindle, before Amazon came in through the back door and left with all of them. So, like Stephanie said, "To hell with (them)."

And now back to the regularly scheduled programming . . .

[Coyotesfan97]

Jim, thank you for mentioning Bodie. I have spent a lot of life there. I was fascinated as a kid (when the road to get there was all dirt). It was a way to get some reality to the westerns we lived as kids. Where I really appreciated Bodie was as an adult cop. Many who follow me will hear “this is all cyclical and it ain’t new”. Bodie was like many inner city crap holes of today. Lots of violence, lots of hype, and lots of not very technically competent folks killing each other with sheer violent will rather than proficiency. These folks were zapping each other often, as well as missing often. Much came down to efficiency and expertise in application. The longer you could survive failure, the better you got at not failing in the reality of the firearms competition with no rules, no timers and second place being a real bad place to be. “Cheating” outweighed skill. Note that many of the greatest skilled gunman were felled with ambush shots in the back. In my studies of highly efficient gunfighters of the modern era I found most with multiple shootings shared a trait that they all had only one that started from the holster. They found getting WAY ahead of a problem and starting gun in hand was one of the biggest advantages they could get.

I’ve been to Bodie three times. Not bad for an Arizonan. Any time I’m in that area I’ll visit it. It’s fascinating to walk through.

[Malamute]

...Keep in mind also that the cap jams that seem to be accepted today as "normal" for the percussion guns, wasnt normal. Caps were made for specific guns and models. In a letter from an Army officer to his superiors (can get references later) he commented that the guns and caps given to the Union spies need to be standardized, because when the caps meant for Colts pistols were used in the Starrs revolvers, they didnt fire reliably, and when caps suitable for Starrs were used in Colts, the caps burst apart in pieces and jammed the guns (sound familiar?). I believe he mentioned Elys caps in particular in regards to the Colts caps/ The Ely caps made specifically for Colts, by implication, didnt normally break apart. Today we are saddled with a "one size is good enough for all" mentality (and I dont mean "size" specifically), and most people havent questioned it, just accept it and assume its always been that way. It hasnt. Many fixes have come along attempting to fix the issue, but the simplest would be if a cap maker made caps of suitable heavy cup that didnt break up when fired in Colts pistols.

.

FWIW, I came across the quote I had in mind regarding caps and different pistols,

The matter was disccussed in a letter from Major R.H.K.Whitely, writing from the New York Arsenal on July 5, 1862, to Brigadier General J.W.Ripley, Chief of the Ordnance Department in Washington.

'First, a cap suitable for Colt's pistol does not suit either Savage's or Starr's, because the main spring is too weak to explode it.
Second, a cap suitable for savages or Starr's pistol does not suit Colt's because the hammer drives it in pieces, a fragment often lodges in front of the cock, and renders the arm useless after the first fire...............Therefore, I am compelled to have two qualities made, one for the Colt's answering in thickness to the Ely's double waterproof, and the other for Savage's and Starr's to Ely's metal lined.' Ripley forwarded the letter to Major W.A.Thornton at West Troy Arsenal and requested the he 'Please see that all revolvers made for this Department are suited to fire the same caps as Colt's Army pistols. From Guns of the American West by Joseph Rosa.

Someone mentioned an SAA that had a dovetailed front sight. that seemed fairly common in the percussion era, Ive seen several in the Cody Museum, as well as one of a pair of Navy Colts attributed to Hickok. Ive seen more than one account of engraved pistols being given to Hickok by admirers, its not at all out of the question that he had a number of guns, including engraved Navy Colts. For some reason in many minds he had only those two pistols. Hard to imagine for someone thats well experienced and wouldnt wish to be without if one or more became lost for whatever reason. Besides, if various people give you pairs of factory engraved Colts, what do you do, sell them and only keep one set?

[Stephanie B]

Raises hand: "Yeah! Me, too!"

I had several e-books on what I thought was "my" Kindle, before Amazon came in through the back door and left with all of them. So, like Stephanie said, "To hell with (them)."

And now back to the regularly scheduled programming . . .

Mine stays in “airplane” mode.

[Dave T]

For those interested in this stuff, take a look at the book Gunfighters, Highwaymen & Vigilanties by Roger D.McGrath. It's a study of violence in the Frontier West, focusing on Aurora, NV and Bodie, CA.

Also, when I was researching officer involved shootings to help develop the training program for my department, I too found most gun fights started with guns already drawn. Of course you can find exceptions where speed of draw was either important or actually critical, but I came to believe competition and training on the square range put too much emphasis on speed of draw, when hitting and assessing were much more important. YMMV!

Dave

[feudist]

Dallas Stoudemire was a sho'nuff shooter.

He was Town Marshal for El Paso for 3 days when he killed 3 men in the infamous "4 dead in 5 seconds" fight. Then killed a guy 3 days later.

He carried 2 S&W .44s.

[HCM]

“Cheating” outweighed skill. Note that many of the greatest skilled gunman were felled with ambush shots in the back.

The classic example of this being an El Paso Minister’s comment on the killing of John Wesley Hardin by John Selman:

“If Hardin was shot from the front, it was remarkably good marksmanship, and if he was shot from behind, it was remarkably good judgment.”

[DueSpada]

"I was thinking here about "pure" firearm proficiency rather than just the ability to kill people due to, mindset, tactics, close range, familiarity with violence, the fact that everyone is drunk all the time, health/vision problems etc. I am also aware that this period is heavily romanticized, both then and now, and accurate accounts (of shootings and training) that are not embellished are mostly few and far between."

Pure firearm proficiency may not be all that much compared to being cool and being sudden.