How proficient were the man killers of old?

[Duelist]

I've read that before... it is diffiult to believe a knowledgeable man would carry a SAA over a 1911 in WWII, but then reality beats fantasy in many bizarre stories.

I admit I'm not that knowledgeable on Jeff Coopers personal history, but what did he do while in WW2? In he was in frontline combat, then yeah, that would be an odd choice( especially given his later advocacy of the 1911), but if he was a truck driver or an admin type, then it wouldn't really be all that relevant.

Jeff corresponded with the experts of his day and they all steered him towards the SAA.



He was in command of the detachment of Marines assigned to a battleship. He went ashore as part of the bombardment assessment parties. IIRC, he was in two separate shootings with the SAA. When he was working for the CIA during the Korean war, he was in a shooting using a 1911.

He should have trusted his own instincts and experience or chose better experts

History repeats itself...

Once of those experts was Elmer Keith, who was no fan of any semi-auto, especially the 1911. It's just odd that Elmer didn't point him to a S&W 1917.


Okie John

IIRC, Col Cooper (then an LT) used the SAA for his first bit of action including the shooting of an enemy soldier, and used a 1911 for the remainder of his service, which included a few more interpersonal deliveries of ordnance via the pistol.

[1Rangemaster]

Jeff Cooper makes a reference to “reloading that relic, in the dark, in combat, was something I grew very tired of in one quick session”, or words to that effect. He later writes about a Marine LT.(I believe him) who was temporarily “confused”(a Marine officer “is never lost”). That officer engaged a Japanese soldier after the officer had climbed a tree to get his bearings. There is a photo of him in the original “Principles” that shows him on a fence shooting downward with a 1911.
I suspect that this mimics that engagement.
He later reports he fired a good many more rounds in the Korean conflict. He talks about speed from the holster saving his life. I think it’s possible that he was using a shoulder rig, which he experimented with at Quantico after Korea and in the early days in Southern California.
These reports are from his “Commentaries” and other writings. A .45 “long Colt” in a SAA ain’t ideal, but I don’t think many would jump in front of it! In the context of “civilian” personal defense, 5 rounds may be enough. Mr. Bolke had a “door answering” SAA with black powder loads he was enthusiastic about. Clint Smith said years ago carrying a SAA made him thoughtful.
Ya pays your money and takes your chances. Most of the time, I’m content with a G26, or maybe a 43(snubbie, anyone?)

[Borderland]

In addition to these, the French also had started trials of a semi-auto rifle in 1913, and even used them early on in small numbers until the proprietary ammo ran out, and then were the first country to mass produce and issue in mass a semiauto service rifle in combat, the RSC 1917, developed during the war.
Also very early developers of the concept of the machine rifle/ light machine gun, with the Chauchat. It wasn't all that great, but it was the most produced machine gun of WW1, and had a big impact.
Also the Sig P210, is essentially a 9mm version of the French 1935A pistol of WW2.
And of course in more modern times, the Famas assault rifle.

Where are all of the French made MAS-36 rifles? I don't think I've ever seen one. I have however seen many Mausers and Enfield's.

[Stephanie B]

He was in command of the detachment of Marines assigned to a battleship. He went ashore as part of the bombardment assessment parties. IIRC, he was in two separate shootings with the SAA. When he was working for the CIA during the Korean war, he was in a shooting using a 1911.

He was on the USS Pennsylvania; so he might reasonably conclude that most of his shooting would be with the 5"/38 mount that MarDets usually manned at GQ,

[Jim Watson]

He once said "Sky aft".

I had a boss who was on the Pennsylvania and a friend's Dad deadheaded to a distant assignment.

[Caballoflaco]

He was on the USS Pennsylvania; so he might reasonably conclude that most of his shooting would be with the 5"/38 mount that MarDets usually manned at GQ,

Now that’s a gun that killed a lot of people. One of my favorite things the last time I was on the USS Alabama was the practice loading station they had set up on the deck so that gun crews could dry practice and learn to maintain a high rate of fire.

[Flamingo]

I have Col Cooper's biography written by his daughter. When the gunroom construction is over (it is taking way too long) I can pull it out and see what it says regarding his SAA.

I think the show I bought it at was the last SOF convention in 1998. I was working a fundraising booth for Refugee Relief International (R. Brown was a big supporter) and I got to chat with Mrs. Cooper for a long time, she was in South Africa at the same time as one of my friends.

[Lex Luthier]

Where are all of the French made MAS-36 rifles? I don't think I've ever seen one. I have however seen many Mausers and Enfield's.

They were surplus'd off in the late 1990s. I bought one for a friend. He still has it.
The lack of a mechanical safety scared off a lot of the straights. They were *very* well made and shot quite well with good ammunition.
IIRC, Century, SOG, several others had acres of them in good shape for little $. Used to see bunches and bunches at SF Bay Area gun shows. Pretty sure they were substitute standard for French police units until the mid 1980s, at least.

[MandoWookie]

Where are all of the French made MAS-36 rifles? I don't think I've ever seen one. I have however seen many Mausers and Enfield's.

Scattered all over Indochina and Africa. And on the surplus market. I'm not sure what your getting at. They were being used by the French and its former colonial holdings for quite a while as reserve weapons, but France was never able to make the ridiculous quantities of the things that all the other major players of WW2 did, or as they did with the Berthier in WW1, because if the whole conquered by Nazis thing.
They never had enough to equip their own forces completely before that happened, but then never intended to. The MAS 40 was supposed to be the frontline rifle, a semi-auto, but didnt get finished or produced until after the war, and both it( as the MAS 44 and 49/56) and the 36 until the Famas was adopted.

[Caballoflaco]

In addition to these, the French also had started trials of a semi-auto rifle in 1913, and even used them early on in small numbers until the proprietary ammo ran out, and then were the first country to mass produce and issue in mass a semiauto service rifle in combat, the RSC 1917, developed during the war.
Also very early developers of the concept of the machine rifle/ light machine gun, with the Chauchat. It wasn't all that great, but it was the most produced machine gun of WW1, and had a big impact.
Also the Sig P210, is essentially a 9mm version of the French 1935A pistol of WW2.
And of course in more modern times, the Famas assault rifle.

In addition to your excellent list.

The Hk416 is the first issued rifle that the French haven’t produced domestically since gunpowder was a thing in warfare.

They supplied us with large amounts of arms during the Revolutionary war.

They lost over 1.3 million troops fighting the Germans in WW1, they did the majority of the fighting on the western front for the majority of the War. At the height of the war they fielded an Army of 8 million men and were loosing on average 900 men KIA daily.

And despite a spectacular defeat at the opening of WWII they had a 900,000 man army and close to 5,000,000 reserve soldiers they could call up to duty and were considered the pre-eminent land Army in the world at the time. But you know, why would they bother with Arms manufacturing when Belgium was next door and regularly used as a highway by invading German Armies.

I’m no Francophile, but as a student of history mis-information about the French Army, which is especially common in the gun world grates on one of my last nerves.