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Thread: How proficient were the man killers of old?

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by TiroFijo View Post
    1- I don't put much faith in the accuracy of witness accounts from 150+ years ago... YMMV

    2- I'm not even saying that the events did not happen as related, just simply stating that shooting a 1860s cap-and-ball revolver at 75 yds is well beyong its accuracy range for an intentional, on demand, well centered torso shot. If it indeed happen a lot of luck was involved and in that particular case it was more important than the shooting prowess of Hickock.
    Here is a video of an accuracy comparison between original Colt 1860 Army and Remington 1858 44 cal. revolvers using the standard military conical bullet load of the time at 50 meters (55 yards). In the video 2 shooters fire one handed rather than Hickok's supported method.

    Last edited by Nightvisionary; 06-20-2019 at 08:38 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave T View Post
    03RN, I just love that old hound dog of yours. (smile)

    Not that I look to Hollywood for historical information or documentation (good grief no) but a kernel of truth might have been spoken by J.B. Books when he gave the shooting lesson to Ron Howard's character (can't remember the name right now) in The Shootist. The kid said his group on the tree trunk was as good as Books group. Books then said the difference was he wouldn't hesitate. When other's wait, he won't.

    That combined with a reasonable level of skill probably has more to do with survival back then (and now) that being Johnny Go Fast who never misses...on the square range.

    Dave
    Gillom Rodgers.



    The book The Shootist was written by Glendon Swarthout (Same guy who wrote Bless The Beasts And The Children). IMO the book was full of homoerotic imagry and wasn't nearly as good as the movie but the book takes place in El Paso and references the John Wesley Hardin shooting I mentioned earlier but says it happened to Books. At the end of the book Books ends up killing all of his opponents and asks Gillom to kill him. Gillom shoots him in the back of the head and takes his guns.
    Last edited by Cypher; 06-20-2019 at 10:31 PM.

  3. #63
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    Like others I have formed opinions on this subject. I say that citizens who had to shoot in defense of town or domicile likely did so with a long gun. Few could have afforded to practice with a handgun even if they owned them. And if they did own them, these weapons may or may not have been those of decent quality. In my very small Mississippi town during the 1920's and 30's, the local bank issued Win 1892 rifles to several merchants to use in case of robbery. They were used once. One other opinion of mine is that in the old days there was a lot of back shooting especially against bullies or attempts by groups to take over localities.

  4. #64
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiroFijo View Post
    1- I don't put much faith in the accuracy of witness accounts from 150+ years ago... YMMV

    2- I'm not even saying that the events did not happen as related, just simply stating that shooting a 1860s cap-and-ball revolver at 75 yds is well beyong its accuracy range for an intentional, on demand, well centered torso shot. If it indeed happen a lot of luck was involved and in that particular case it was more important than the shooting prowess of Hickock.
    I'll accept witness accounts, but Stuart N. Lake's book about Earp (on which most movies are based) is fictionalized.

    The sights on Colt .44 revolvers were zeroed for 70-75 yards, not close quarters.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    The sights on Colt .44 revolvers were zeroed for 70-75 yards, not close quarters.
    I think I read somewhere that they were designed that way so you could hold on the belt buckle and get good hits from arms length out to 75-100 yards.

    A 1860 Army replica I have shoots 10 inches high at 10 yards and is accurate at that distance. I don't remember if I ever shot it at long distance.

    I also read somewhere that they used to use urine to clean black powder guns.

  6. #66
    The Nostomaniac 03RN's Avatar
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    Urine can be used to rust blue metal. Never heard it could be used to clean.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Harris View Post
    ...SNIP
    2. And Billy Dixon could probably never replicate the 1538 yard shot he made at Adobe Walls in June of 1874 either ....SNIP
    Jeff Cooper researched that fight and wrote in Volume 4 of his Commentaries that Dixon "...always maintained that it was a lucky shot..."

    We all have lucky days. Dixon and Hickok had witnesses on two of theirs.


    Okie John
    “The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
    "Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    I'll accept witness accounts, but Stuart N. Lake's book about Earp (on which most movies are based) is fictionalized.

    The sights on Colt .44 revolvers were zeroed for 70-75 yards, not close quarters.
    The Walker Colt in .44 introduced in 1847 and became a long time use gun by the Texas Rangers, who clearly used it at extended ranges on various problems. Many folks forget that there was not a commonly available repeating rifle in The Republic until the 1870s. The Walker was used in a role that the Winchesters later took over (and better). Doing a little study on the 19th Century Rangers shows that they killed MANY folks with that revolver. Had it been wanting, that would be fairly prominent in the historical writings. It wasn't. The Colt Paterson .36, originally used by the Rangers, was very marginal in actual use, but beat hell out of a single shot pistol. The Rangers' experience with the Paterson was levered into the very effective Colt Walker .44 (actually a .45 across the grooves). The Walker was of course named after Texas Ranger Samuel Walker, who collaborated with Samuel Colt on the design of the revolver, but who was killed in the Mexican American War within a day or two after he received his shipment.

    As for Hickock's 12 shots a day, there is a minor correction needed. He fired 10 shots a day, since you didn't load all six chambers. The gun was notoriously unsafe from a drop perspective, so you rested the hammer down on an empty chamber.
    Last edited by Wayne Dobbs; 06-21-2019 at 12:31 PM.
    Regional Government Sales Manager for Aimpoint, Inc. USA
    Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    As for Hickock's 12 shots a day, there is a minor correction needed. He fired 10 shots a day, since you didn't load all six chambers. The gun was notoriously unsafe from a drop perspective, so you rested the hammer down on an empty chamber.
    I understand that Jesse James had the same routine, but he always kept one loaded. He'd empty one revolver, clean it and reload it, then repeat with the other one.


    Okie John
    “The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
    "Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by okie john View Post
    I understand that Jesse James had the same routine, but he always kept one loaded. He'd empty one revolver, clean it and reload it, then repeat with the other one.


    Okie John
    Both careful men, for clearly different reasons and both killed when they had their backs turned to their murderers.
    Last edited by Wayne Dobbs; 06-21-2019 at 12:32 PM.
    Regional Government Sales Manager for Aimpoint, Inc. USA
    Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)

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