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Thread: How proficient were the man killers of old?

  1. #31
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    One of my hobbies over the years has been as a student of Post Civil War settlement of the West, with an emphasis on Lawman and Peace Officers. For 3-1/2 years I was part of the Speaker's Bureau of the Arizona Historical Society. For years I read everything I could find on outlaws, gunfights and peace officers. The information and impressions I got paint a complex picture, as alluded to above. Many shooting resulted in many more rounds being fired than intended targets hit, and that was often at arms reach distances. The lawman and outlaws involved in these incidents probably didn't practice much if at all.

    I've read a couple of reports of Wyatt Earp practicing. Hickok, who favored '51 Navy Colt percussion revolvers, was said to fire all twelve rounds from his two guns every day. clean them, then load them with fresh powder, ball & caps. Firing those 12 rounds was done deliberately and on more than one occasion he put on shooting demonstrations that wowed the bystanders.

    My favorite character from that era is Jefferson Davis Milton. Jeff Milton was a lawman most of his life, starting with the Texas Rangers (he lied about his age) and ending as a Custom's Line Rider in the Arizona desert. While the Chief of Police for El Paso, Texas he faced down John Westly Harden. Despite reading everything I can find on him I've read nothing about him practicing, but he was known to be able to hit most anything he aimed at. That kind of skill generally needs some kind practice. Harden was reported to practice, dry firing in his rooms in El Paso so much the other residents complained.

    Also, I had a gunsmith friend who in his youth was with the Border Patrol. He told me he grew up on a farm in California. His neighbor was Ira Aten, a noted Texas Ranger and Sheriff. My friend once asked Aten how he survived all his gun fights. He told his young neighbor that you just look down the barrel and go easy on the trigger. That sounds like someone who got a rudimentary sight picture and understood trigger control.

    In all the reading and research I did there was little mention of actual practicing, but a number of them, like Milton and Aten above, were known early in their lives as "crack shots". That kind of skill and reputation had to come from someplace.

    Dave

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by UncleEd View Post
    Marksmanship had to be better in the olden days
    as men weree shorter and much, much thinner,
    thus presenting a much smaller back to shoot at.
    Not true at all. Human hearts and brains that are critical in ending fights were the same size and located in the same place. The HUGE change has been in the treating of shooting injuries over the years. Many things that are a nothing burger to treat today in a busy metropolitan trauma center would have the potential to have been fatal or catastrophic a 100 years ago plus or minus 75 years....
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlw View Post
    You mean like @Randy Harris?
    Someone rang?

    I'll pop back in and offer some thoughts on this when I'm not at work.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiroFijo View Post
    Probably a cap-and-ball revolver of that era would group into 18"+ at 75 yds...
    Not sure what you're implying but the Hickock/Tutt fight had multiple witnesses and was very well documented.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Harris View Post
    Someone rang?

    I'll pop back in and offer some thoughts on this when I'm not at work.
    Well, @John Hearne suggested a course of action, but it was up to a local to actually get it done. It was very federal of him.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave T View Post
    One of my hobbies over the years has been as a student of Post Civil War settlement of the West, with an emphasis on Lawman and Peace Officers. For 3-1/2 years I was part of the Speaker's Bureau of the Arizona Historical Society. For years I read everything I could find on outlaws, gunfights and peace officers. The information and impressions I got paint a complex picture, as alluded to above. Many shooting resulted in many more rounds being fired than intended targets hit, and that was often at arms reach distances. The lawman and outlaws involved in these incidents probably didn't practice much if at all.

    I've read a couple of reports of Wyatt Earp practicing. Hickok, who favored '51 Navy Colt percussion revolvers, was said to fire all twelve rounds from his two guns every day. clean them, then load them with fresh powder, ball & caps. Firing those 12 rounds was done deliberately and on more than one occasion he put on shooting demonstrations that wowed the bystanders.

    My favorite character from that era is Jefferson Davis Milton. Jeff Milton was a lawman most of his life, starting with the Texas Rangers (he lied about his age) and ending as a Custom's Line Rider in the Arizona desert. While the Chief of Police for El Paso, Texas he faced down John Westly Harden. Despite reading everything I can find on him I've read nothing about him practicing, but he was known to be able to hit most anything he aimed at. That kind of skill generally needs some kind practice. Harden was reported to practice, dry firing in his rooms in El Paso so much the other residents complained.

    Also, I had a gunsmith friend who in his youth was with the Border Patrol. He told me he grew up on a farm in California. His neighbor was Ira Aten, a noted Texas Ranger and Sheriff. My friend once asked Aten how he survived all his gun fights. He told his young neighbor that you just look down the barrel and go easy on the trigger. That sounds like someone who got a rudimentary sight picture and understood trigger control.

    In all the reading and research I did there was little mention of actual practicing, but a number of them, like Milton and Aten above, were known early in their lives as "crack shots". That kind of skill and reputation had to come from someplace.

    Dave
    Milton is considered the first “Border Patrolman” as a “mounted Chinese Inspector” doing immigration patrols along the border prior to the formation of the Border Patrol in 1924.

    http://www.darkcanyon.net/jeff_davis_milton.htm

    As documented by Askins, the early BP was known to train / practice.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    Not sure what you're implying but the Hickock/Tutt fight had multiple witnesses and was very well documented.
    1- I don't put much faith in the accuracy of witness accounts from 150+ years ago... YMMV

    2- I'm not even saying that the events did not happen as related, just simply stating that shooting a 1860s cap-and-ball revolver at 75 yds is well beyong its accuracy range for an intentional, on demand, well centered torso shot. If it indeed happen a lot of luck was involved and in that particular case it was more important than the shooting prowess of Hickock.
    Last edited by TiroFijo; 06-19-2019 at 04:50 PM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiroFijo View Post
    1- I don't put much faith in the accuracy of witness accounts from 150+ years ago... YMMV

    2- I'm not even saying that the events did not happen as related, just simply stating that shooting a 1860s cap-and-ball revolver at 75 yds is well beyong its accuracy range for an intentional, on demand, well centered torso shot. If it indeed happen a lot of luck was involved and in that particular case it was more important than the shooting prowess of Hickock.
    Not knowing your expertise, I will respond with what I know. The incident was widely reported, including in several news papers. There were countless witnesses who were interviewed. It did happen.

    The town square was measured, from where Hickok stood to where Tutt stood. It was 75 yards.

    Hickok was carrying a "44" according to most accounts, not his later more favored 36 cal '51 Navies. Since he had only recently gotten out of the Union Army where he was a scout and it is easy to understand and believe he was carrying an 1860 Army revolver, a 44.

    Most accounts report Tutt spotted Hickok across the square and drew his own weapon and started firing. With round balls raining around him Hickok drew his own weapon, took deliberate aim and dropped his assailant with his first shot. Several by-standers stated the coolness under fire displayed by Hickok was admirable. He then had to cover Tutt's friends (assessment?) as they were turning surly. They changed their minds.

    In a later armed encounter in Abilene, Kansas Hickok got ahead of his assessment speed and shot his own deputy thinking he was being attacked from behind. Interestingly that was the last time James Butler ever fired a shot at another man.

    Don't believe it if you don't want to TiroFijo. I've done my research into this years ago and I am comfortable I have a pretty good understanding about what happened. Not every detail was reported or commented on but the substance is pretty well documented.

    Dave
    Last edited by Dave T; 06-19-2019 at 05:33 PM.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by TiroFijo View Post
    1- I don't put much faith in the accuracy of witness accounts from 150+ years ago... YMMV

    2- I'm not even saying that the events did not happen as related, just simply stating that shooting a 1860s cap-and-ball revolver at 75 yds is well beyong its accuracy range for an intentional, on demand, well centered torso shot. If it indeed happen a lot of luck was involved and in that particular case it was more important than the shooting prowess of Hickock.
    Have you fired cap and ball sixguns at 75 yards or further? What, in your opinion, are the mechanical limitations of an 1860s cap and ball revolver (or the bullets and powder common to that period) that prevent it from being accurate at that range?

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Malamute View Post
    This was from a repro Colt 1860 Army, (the medium size for 44 cal) using modern powder and caps, most of which I believe is inferior to the powder used in the period. One hand, 15 yards. Ive not shot it much. Point of aim was the bottom of the black. Most of the Colts belt and horse pistols were sighted pretty high by todays standards, like somewhere around 50-75 yards.

    Some also think the guns gummed up within a few rounds, again, thats using modern powder and methods. the Colts Navy was fired pretty much all day in a test by the Navy or Army in the mid 1800s, they said the rifling wasnt visible from leading, but the gun continued to function. Correct, quality powder (such as Swiss today), bullet lube etc, the guns seem to run quite a while.
    Thanks for posting this. In regards to the bolded above I have not heard this and I would have thought that today’s black powder would be higher quality than 19th century black powder. What is the reason for the difference? I’m not doubting you, I’m just curious

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