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Thread: Worst training advice ever

  1. #1
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    Worst training advice ever

    Today I was at a local gun store completing a purchase, and talking to the guy behind the counter. We discussed the current financial misdeeds at the NRA, his experiences at Camp Perry, etc., when he discussed an acquaintance taking a class on clearing houses.

    His advice to that acquaintance: "never take a class like that. Taking that class will get you crucified by a jury."

    I pointed out how easy it was to defeat an attempt to make someone look bad for having taken such a class. If I have a possibility of my kids getting injured, I am reasonable in taking a first aid class, right? If I anticipate having to drive in difficult conditions, I am reasonable in taking a driving class, right? So if there is a possibility or probability of having to defend my family, learning the proper way to do it is reasonable.

    Despite his having just completed my instant background check and knowing I am an attorney, he continued to insist that I did not know what I was talking about. He insisted his advice reflected the difference between being in a rural area and a city.

    Making matters even worse, SouthNarc's Armed Movement In Structures class, among others, is sometimes hosted in the Pittsburgh area, so there is a possibility that this is the class that this idiot is discouraging people from taking.

    I am flabbergasted that with so much good information so readily available, such stupid ideas persist.

  2. #2
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    Sadly, I'd be far, far more surprised to hear good training/ tactical advice at a gun shop.
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
    "I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI

  3. #3
    Dot Driver Kyle Reese's Avatar
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    I'd find another gun shop. Life is too short to deal with derp.

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  4. #4
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    Gun stores are well known for selling GUNS...not for dispensing sound training or legal advice.

  5. #5
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    Couple of guys at the office were preaching guns at a female co-worker yesterday. Both are former Army, one actually retired. "Get a shotgun for home defense, then you don't have to aim. Load birdshot in the barrel, then it won't go through the walls. Put slugs in after, it's still safer than a rifle or pistol."

    She told them, "Oh, Duelist is going to take me to the range later this summer to teach me some things."

    I LOL'd. We talked about it this morning, and both shook our heads about not aiming a gun - any gun. She is a young-ish grandmother, who served in the Army for a couple of years when she was 18. Never has yet fired a handgun.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Reese View Post
    I'd find another gun shop. Life is too short to deal with derp.

    Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk
    This guy was filling in for the owner, who is much more knowledgeable and is 100% worthy of my business.

    I do want to buy from them when possible because one never knows when the big box stores will decide that they can improve their public image by not selling modern sporting rifles or standard capacity magazines.

    Otherwise I would agree.



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    Any legal information I may post is general information, and is not legal advice. Such information may or may not apply to your specific situation. I am not your attorney unless an attorney-client relationship is separately and privately established.

  7. #7
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Just gotta find the humor in some of these interactions, IMHO.
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    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  8. #8
    Gucci gear, Walmart skill Darth_Uno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Reese View Post
    I'd find another gun shop. Life is too short to deal with derp.

    Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk
    Gun shops have their use. Someone needs to sell guns. That's also the extent of their usefulness. I'd like to say "support your local gun shop", but if I could buy them on Amazon the LGS would probably never see me again. But I don't roll up with, "I need a gun for concealed carry", I always know ahead of time exactly what I want (although I'm a very poor judge of what I need).

  9. #9
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    I pointed out how easy it was to defeat an attempt to make someone look bad for having taken such a class.
    Tell me how you do that so easily given the vagaries of juror characteristics. Please reference the well known cases where training as been brought up as a negative vs. the analyses by some well known defense attorneys who think it could be a positive. Expert witness may be needed and are expensive. $1000 to $10000 a day have been cited.

    The Larry Hickey case was not easy: https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/ima...ey_Booklet.pdf

    Lisa Steele said:

    Ideally, the client will also have some formal training in the use of deadly force which will allow the client’s teacher to testify about the client’s training in order to show that the client’s actions were subjectively reasonable. If the client has not had any formal training, counsel may still seek an expert to testify about use of force issues. However, the attorney may encounter difficulty showing that the expert’s opinion is relevant if it was not the basis for the client’s subjective decision. The attorney could offer expert testimony to show that the client’s actions were objectively reasonable.
    My point - it is not a risk to be taken easily and your attorney better be ready to be quite knowledgeable on the risk and how to combat it.

    While you are an attorney, the jury research is suggests it is not easy.

    My conclusion: Telling someone not to take a class is stupid. However, saying it is easy is not realistic. It's more nuanced but the clerk is an idiot, I agree.

  10. #10
    Member wvincent's Avatar
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    Whelp, that advise was worth exactly what you paid for it.

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