Shooting the .40 High Power

[ranger]

Beautiful pistols - they always "bit" me with hammer bite. I remember the pre STI/SVI 2011 days of USPSA when we were looking for higher capacity and we tried to race the BHPs - they did not last long in high volume shooting.

Not knocking the P35 - beautiful pistol that suffered when fed a steady diet of high pressure loads - which it was not designed for or intended to function with.

I think I got this quote off Cylinder and Slide:
There is, however, one other short- coming with the 9mm Browning. The P-35 is not the most rugged of 9mm pistols. It was designed back in the '20s, remember, before using submachine gun ammo in pistols became the military paradigm, and before today's high-pressure self-defense loads. The gun being slim, the parts are relatively small and therefore relatively fragile. In addition, many pistolsmiths consider the Browning's parts comparatively soft in virtually every incarnation of the gun.
From Venezuela to Great Britain; I've seen quantities of broken Brownings in government arsenals whose slides and frames were cracked by the brutal hammering of 9xl9 NATO ammo. +P and +P+ loads also seem to be contraindicated. Listen to Bill Laughridge, who said to me, "Tell your readers in all caps, DON'T USE +P IN HI- POWERS! It's been my experience that even a few magazines of +P will upset the locking lugs."

We were trying to use 175 PF "9mm of some form" loads - often 9x21 as a rule beater - in anything that would hold more than a singlestack 1911 back in the 1980s. I do not remember the exact failure points. Had similar issues with Beretta 92 variants and CZ75s at 175 PF with loads at 9mm length. The CZ75 clones did the best but the slide stop had to be replaced with a tool steel rod until aftermarket parts hit the market.

[JonInWA]

Not knocking the P35 - beautiful pistol that suffered when fed a steady diet of high pressure loads - which it was not designed for or intended to function with.

I think I got this quote off Cylinder and Slide:
There is, however, one other short- coming with the 9mm Browning. The P-35 is not the most rugged of 9mm pistols. It was designed back in the '20s, remember, before using submachine gun ammo in pistols became the military paradigm, and before today's high-pressure self-defense loads. The gun being slim, the parts are relatively small and therefore relatively fragile. In addition, many pistolsmiths consider the Browning's parts comparatively soft in virtually every incarnation of the gun.
From Venezuela to Great Britain; I've seen quantities of broken Brownings in government arsenals whose slides and frames were cracked by the brutal hammering of 9xl9 NATO ammo. +P and +P+ loads also seem to be contraindicated. Listen to Bill Laughridge, who said to me, "Tell your readers in all caps, DON'T USE +P IN HI- POWERS! It's been my experience that even a few magazines of +P will upset the locking lugs."

We were trying to use 175 PF "9mm of some form" loads - often 9x21 as a rule beater - in anything that would hold more than a singlestack 1911 back in the 1980s. I do not remember the exact failure points. Had similar issues with Beretta 92 variants and CZ75s at 175 PF with loads at 9mm length. The CZ75 clones did the best but the slide stop had to be replaced with a tool steel rod until aftermarket parts hit the market.

I remember that quote-it's from Massad Ayoob and one of his High Power articles, probably in the 1990s. And thanks for your USPSA recollections.

Best, Jon

[serialsolver]

A different option on the hi power durability.

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=496787

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=496787

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=496787

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=496787

http://www.warriortalk.com/archive/index.php/t-991.html


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[JPedersen]

I left your 3eeeeeeeewe

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[sparkyv]

Hammer bite with High Powers is a real problem for some, but there are several fixes.

Stephen Camp determined that there are 3 types of hammer bite: 1) when the web of your hand is smacked by the rear of the hammer spur or the bottom rear of the OEM ring hammer; 2) when the web of the hand is pinched between the receiver tang and the hammer shank; 3) by both 1) and 2) combined...

With an OEM spur hammer, a solution is to slightly bob the hammer spur; he recommends removing metal to the second lateral serration on the spur tip, and then smoothing/reshaping. Alternatively, Cylinder & Slide offers several ring-style hammers, on the one similar to the FN OEM ring but designed specifically to alleviate hammer bite, the ring is smaller than the OEM one and chamfered; going with their part he felt concurrently necessitates using their sear and a trigger/action job-they have several hammer options and hammer/spring/sear sets.

On forged models, the points on the receiver tang itself can be pretty sharp, but the post-1993 cast frames pretty much eliminate this by being intrinsically more rounded and less protrusive.

I'm lucky; I'm not afflicted by hammer bite or receiver bite, so I've been able to leave well enough alone in this aspect. But for others, it can be a real problem.

Best, Jon

Jon, the hammer in the image is a commander style hammer that I bobbed myself. It reduced the bite significantly, but not completely. I have meaty hands, and I have always gripped way up on my firearms, so there may be no perfect option for me. I'm glad this is no issue for you, as the BHP is a superb firearm. Well, the bob-job I performed was rather crude, so out of embarrassment I recently replaced it with another commander aftermarket C&S hammer, and I'll just put her away for the meantime, as I have other 40s that currently have drawn my attention.

[Jared]

When I was a kid, dad bought a Browning Hi-Power MKIII, the silver chrome model they called it. It was a beautiful pistol, which he bought to save money on ammo when he took me shooting (I loved shooting 45 as a kid). Anyway, I loved the pistol, but like a lot of Dad's other guns, in time he traded it off on something else.

Flash forward over 20 years and I've been reading PF for a while. I've changed my grip to a modern thumbs forward type. I found a used specimen exactly like the one dad used to have. I took it home with me, thinking about how awesome this was going to be. Then I shot 50 rounds through it...... It turns out that now I get hammer bite from a BHP, something that I didn't have an issue with as a kid. Not being in the mood to have a bunch of custom work done, I think I put another hundred rounds through it on two other range trips and then I parted ways with it. It's a shame really, because I think the BHP is a sexier pistol than the 1911, and the grip feels absolutely wonderful.

[jeep45238]

When I was a kid, dad bought a Browning Hi-Power MKIII, the silver chrome model they called it. It was a beautiful pistol, which he bought to save money on ammo when he took me shooting (I loved shooting 45 as a kid). Anyway, I loved the pistol, but like a lot of Dad's other guns, in time he traded it off on something else.

Flash forward over 20 years and I've been reading PF for a while. I've changed my grip to a modern thumbs forward type. I found a used specimen exactly like the one dad used to have. I took it home with me, thinking about how awesome this was going to be. Then I shot 50 rounds through it...... It turns out that now I get hammer bite from a BHP, something that I didn't have an issue with as a kid. Not being in the mood to have a bunch of custom work done, I think I put another hundred rounds through it on two other range trips and then I parted ways with it. It's a shame really, because I think the BHP is a sexier pistol than the 1911, and the grip feels absolutely wonderful.

Trade 'dad' for 'me' and remove 20 year part, and that's where I was in the 2010's. The complete lack of trigger reset feel was abnormal (removed mag safety by previous owner) and the hammer bite did it in. I'd like a beavertail model to just hang in the safe, but that's a ways down the road I think.

[Zulu Kilo]

Anyone else have an issue with the BHP slide inadvertently locking to the rear during firing with a thumbs forward grip? I have a Novak Hi-Power I had built in the mid 90s and recently broke it out feeling all nostalgic. This was an issue every few rounds with every magazine. It has been a safe queen for awhile and my pistol shooting technique has definitely evolved since the last time I fired it. I was able to replicate it non-firing by running the slide and making contact with the slide stop. Seems that the pressure of my support hand thumb was causing it. When I modified my grip where there was no contact with the slide stop it worked as designed.

[JonInWA]

A different option on the hi power durability.

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=496787

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=496787

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=496787

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=496787

http://www.warriortalk.com/archive/index.php/t-991.html


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Serialsolver, thanks for researching out and posting those links. I have no doubt that the Ayoob article has had a ripple effect; he's an entertaining writer, but sometimes I question the veracity/factual basis for his assertions.

The warriortalk.com information was very, very interesting-perhaps all this time we've been significantly underestimating the durability of the High Powers-particularly subsequent to the 1993 frame and component upgrades, which were initially for the .40s, but then became universally applied.

Given the physical dimensions of the High Power platform, I do feel that regular recoil spring replacement is crucial, prudent, and quite inexpensive. One characteristic that seems to resonate in High Power discussions with actual High Power users is their exceptional reliability. This would seem to also be attested by the long-term active duty use by the British and Canadian, and Australian armed forces.

The issues that seem to cause accelerated wear/small parts breakage are when the platform is run heavily with hot-rodded ammunition, particularly for USPSA when it seems that users were pushing things towards the extreme end of acceptable performance margins.

I believe that the .mil/LEO prevalent contracting standard for pistols was, at least until fairly recently for an expected forecasted lifespan of some 20K, assuming manufacturers' recommendations for lubrication, servicing, and parts component replacement intervals were followed. As our discussion and information input continues, it seems to be shaping up that the High Power when used with standard pressure cartridges holds up very well indeed, particularly in 9mm, and, I suspect, particularly even more so with the post 1993 examples.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of information about how the .40s hold up, simply because I suspect that there are few users putting higher roundcounts through theirs, and overall production figures were probably fairly low, as it always was a bit of a cognoscenti piece in that caliber, and was produced only from 1993 to 2011; I'm personally unaware of any military or LEO issue of them, although I'm sure departments may have authorized them on an individual basis. My feeling is that they hold up quite well, due to the combination of the heavy slide and increased strength 20 lb. recoil spring, but that a lot of that is dependent upon regular recoil spring replacement (particularly at the rate recommended by Stephen Camp, every 1,000 to 1,200 rounds), and use of a Buffer Technologies polymer buffer may help also (I have one on order as we speak that I'll experiment with, but my results are expected to be of negligible worth, as I doubt that I'm putting more than 500 rounds a year through mine (and, in the past several years, even less).

I believe p-f member DocGKR has acquired some significant Hi Power use and roundcounts in years past, hopefully he'll chime in on the discussion.

Best, Jon

[serialsolver]

Here is the article referenced.

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/bhptoday.shtml

If one used the standard in the article none of the popular pistols today would be any good. I’m sure the us military has buckets if not barrels of broken m9’s. In the 1970’s the military most likely had barrels of broken 1911’s. Are they fragile also? I just don’t think it is a fair assessment of the hi power or 1911, m9, glock...etc, or any quality manufactured handgun from reputable manufacturers.

Also I have fired several magazines of golddot 124+p’s in my hi powers and the lugs were not upset. I’m sure others have the same experience with +p ammunition in their hp’s. Most notable mr camp.

I’m not a hi power fan-boy, nor am I trying to call anyone out or start an argument, I just don’t think the standard in the article is fair.

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