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Thread: Real BJJ

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    Do a lot of gyms that teach these fancy new guards, heel hooks and wristlocks really just gloss over the basics though?

    No, they don't. Go to a class with Danaher and work on leglocks, and he is going to make sure you can get to the leglocks. The only way you can do that is by knowing the fundamentals. Go to Atos, the Mendes bros, the Miyaos, all the same.

    If the academy has a schedule where everyone is in the same class, will there be classes where they are working on berimbolos, and ashi-garama, and the newer guys are stuck learning more complex things? Sure, and then shortly after that in a follow up class, they will be working on juji-gatame from closed guard. It is not a non-stop "let's work on cool new comp moves". That is a fantasy. BJJ is vast, and takes time to absorb. Sometimes you spend time on hard or advanced stuff, and sometimes you spend time on the essentials. Picking a single snap shot of one class is not the total picture.
    Last edited by Cecil Burch; 06-10-2019 at 12:33 PM.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by BigD View Post




    The majority of academies are more like what? The sparring in the first part of the video, the Vale Tudo Fridays, training in the parking lot, training on only carpet??? That hasn't been my experience. I can say with complete certainty that the majority of academies are not doing those things.

    Like makul, you are missing the entire point of the article. You both mistake form for substance.

    Do I think that most BJJ schools train on carpet or asphalt, or have regular Vale Tudo classes? Of course not, and that is irrelevant. What is relevant and is the point is that the SPIRIT of that, the willingness to do that type of training, and the willingness to fight in a manner, environment, or situation different from “normal” training does exist in most legitimate BJJ schools. Even in the most sport centric of them, the bulk of the time training is spent against a partner who is doing his best to make you lose, and can do whatever is allowed in the rules to do so. He is not artificially constrained to only attack with “grab my wrist” opposition. When you face that all the time, having to deal with something else on top of that is not much of a problem, and few people collapse just because they are not on the mat in a gi. The “street” people love to talk about sport guys being unprepared to deal with a real attack, and yet the real world proof of that is utterly absent. In fact, what we see, is that even guys who do “sport” BJJ handle themselves in a self-defense scenario over and over again, and we rarely, if ever, see one of these guys trying to do a berimbolo while the other guy is punching them. The Ryan Hall incident is a fantastic illustration. Here is a BJJ guy who never spent any energy talking about self-defense in his BJJ career (up to that point) and was known for being one of the guys who loved to do inverted and cool guy moves. And yet, what did he do in the video? He shot a double leg, mounted the guy. Slapped him gently in the face and when the guy turned over choked him out with a rear naked. The exact opposite of what he did regularly in competition, but what he did under pressure. If playing for points and doing competition only moves was actually bad, Hall should have been thumped. But it did not happen. The sport critics love to hypothesize that the sport guys will fall apart in anything outside of sport, and yet we don’t see it.

    Regularly going up against a resisting partner with opposing will, malevolent intent, and freedom of action is pretty good preparation even when the situation is new. Does that mean the sport guy automatically wins in the street? No, but he also does not instantaneously collapse in a fetal crying position the first time a guy tries to punch him either. That sounds great, but has little to no proof behind that trope.


    Furthermore, the comp scene has exploded. Fifteen years ago comps were few and far between. Now they are common. Even if everyone in the gym isn't competing, many of the hardcore regulars are, and they are driving what is taught and what techniques are emphasized. Most IBJJF World titles are won on points and more than a few are won on just advantages. (I just checked. In the 2018 IBJJF Worlds, there was one submission in the finals, four wins by points, two wins by advantages and one win by referee's decision plus an injury and a close out.) These guys are fighting for points as much as submissions. Sport BJJ has changed BJJ.

    To be fair, I should mention the rise of submission-only tournaments, which have become more popular for PPV spectactors and as a backlash against the point fighting in IBJJF.

    I am so frickin’ tried of people throwing points around as some kind of condemnation of competition BJJ. Especially with a look at the black belt finals of the world championships as some kind of ultimate “gotcha”.

    So two elite athletes, in their physical prime, who have been prepping for months to peak at a specific time, who are roughly the same age, and the same weight, and are as far as technical knowledge are as equally matched as humanly possible end up without a submission after 10 minutes? I am shocked! Really? Someone thinks that is surprising? To me, that seems like a really ignorant understanding and poor grasp of BJJ. I am a fairly mediocre black belt, and I can guarantee that against almost any black belt in the world, I have a pretty good shot of defending a submission. I would mount exactly zero offense and threaten him in no way, but I can keep him from tapping me. But the score would probably be something like 87 -0. Is that in any way not an indication that in a fight, I would be dead?

    The reason points exist is that because between two peers, a submission in a reasonable amount of time is hard. In a typical 6 minute sparring round, I can pretty much tap any lower belt, but another black belt? Especially one who I train with multiple times a week and have done so for years, and knows my game? That is zero reflection on whether I can fight against a criminal attacker in the street who knows almost nothing about grappling, just as Lucas Leite not tapping Renato Carruto in a single match means nothing towards whether points affect the ability to fight and/or means competitors “play to win”. Which is a nonsense term .

    Points were introduced in BJJ because you know what is worse that watching someone win on points? Watching a fight between two great black belts and there being no submission at the end so there is no winner. THAT truly sucks, as most of these submission only tournaments are finding out.

    And further, the points in BJJ are geared towards winning a streetfight. You get no reward for escaping or defending, you only get points for progressing towards the finish. If you take someone down and show that you are controlling the fight to take it to where you want, you get 2 points. If you do nothing else, you get nothing for it because you are doing nothing else. If the other guy establishes guard off your takedown, he gets no points because he is expected to defend. If he then sweeps you and gains a more dominant position he gets 2 points. If his sweep takes him straight to mount, he gets 4 more points. Let’s say that is where it ends up for the remaining minute of a match. So someone is going to argue that the second guy was not winning the fight and would not have done so in the street, whether a submission happened of not? If it was the street, maybe INSTEAD of a submission, the second guy deploys a pistol and goes to town. He can do it because he controlled the fight and went to where he wanted to go. The points in BJJ clearly show that. It is crazy to argue that working for points in that manner is somehow unrelated to fighting. I have been fortunate to be around the best competitors in BJJ history, and I have yet to find one of them who would not prefer to win a fight with a submission. But when going against your peer, that is not commonly possible. But doing it to a white belt, or someone who knows no grappling? It will be another Ryan Hall scenario.

    Someone wants to believe that BJJ training is watered down now and that most schools are only interested in competition? Cool, it does not harm me in any way for someone to think that. But it does not mean it is correct.
    For info about training or to contact me:
    Immediate Action Combatives

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil Burch View Post
    Like makul, you are missing the entire point of the article. You both mistake form for substance.

    Do I think that most BJJ schools train on carpet or asphalt, or have regular Vale Tudo classes? Of course not, and that is irrelevant. What is relevant and is the point is that the SPIRIT of that, the willingness to do that type of training, and the willingness to fight in a manner, environment, or situation different from “normal” training does exist in most legitimate BJJ schools. Even in the most sport centric of them, the bulk of the time training is spent against a partner who is doing his best to make you lose, and can do whatever is allowed in the rules to do so. He is not artificially constrained to only attack with “grab my wrist” opposition. When you face that all the time, having to deal with something else on top of that is not much of a problem, and few people collapse just because they are not on the mat in a gi. The “street” people love to talk about sport guys being unprepared to deal with a real attack, and yet the real world proof of that is utterly absent. In fact, what we see, is that even guys who do “sport” BJJ handle themselves in a self-defense scenario over and over again, and we rarely, if ever, see one of these guys trying to do a berimbolo while the other guy is punching them. The Ryan Hall incident is a fantastic illustration. Here is a BJJ guy who never spent any energy talking about self-defense in his BJJ career (up to that point) and was known for being one of the guys who loved to do inverted and cool guy moves. And yet, what did he do in the video? He shot a double leg, mounted the guy. Slapped him gently in the face and when the guy turned over choked him out with a rear naked. The exact opposite of what he did regularly in competition, but what he did under pressure. If playing for points and doing competition only moves was actually bad, Hall should have been thumped. But it did not happen. The sport critics love to hypothesize that the sport guys will fall apart in anything outside of sport, and yet we don’t see it.

    Regularly going up against a resisting partner with opposing will, malevolent intent, and freedom of action is pretty good preparation even when the situation is new. Does that mean the sport guy automatically wins in the street? No, but he also does not instantaneously collapse in a fetal crying position the first time a guy tries to punch him either. That sounds great, but has little to no proof behind that trope.





    I am so frickin’ tried of people throwing points around as some kind of condemnation of competition BJJ. Especially with a look at the black belt finals of the world championships as some kind of ultimate “gotcha”.

    So two elite athletes, in their physical prime, who have been prepping for months to peak at a specific time, who are roughly the same age, and the same weight, and are as far as technical knowledge are as equally matched as humanly possible end up without a submission after 10 minutes? I am shocked! Really? Someone thinks that is surprising? To me, that seems like a really ignorant understanding and poor grasp of BJJ. I am a fairly mediocre black belt, and I can guarantee that against almost any black belt in the world, I have a pretty good shot of defending a submission. I would mount exactly zero offense and threaten him in no way, but I can keep him from tapping me. But the score would probably be something like 87 -0. Is that in any way not an indication that in a fight, I would be dead?

    The reason points exist is that because between two peers, a submission in a reasonable amount of time is hard. In a typical 6 minute sparring round, I can pretty much tap any lower belt, but another black belt? Especially one who I train with multiple times a week and have done so for years, and knows my game? That is zero reflection on whether I can fight against a criminal attacker in the street who knows almost nothing about grappling, just as Lucas Leite not tapping Renato Carruto in a single match means nothing towards whether points affect the ability to fight and/or means competitors “play to win”. Which is a nonsense term .

    Points were introduced in BJJ because you know what is worse that watching someone win on points? Watching a fight between two great black belts and there being no submission at the end so there is no winner. THAT truly sucks, as most of these submission only tournaments are finding out.

    And further, the points in BJJ are geared towards winning a streetfight. You get no reward for escaping or defending, you only get points for progressing towards the finish. If you take someone down and show that you are controlling the fight to take it to where you want, you get 2 points. If you do nothing else, you get nothing for it because you are doing nothing else. If the other guy establishes guard off your takedown, he gets no points because he is expected to defend. If he then sweeps you and gains a more dominant position he gets 2 points. If his sweep takes him straight to mount, he gets 4 more points. Let’s say that is where it ends up for the remaining minute of a match. So someone is going to argue that the second guy was not winning the fight and would not have done so in the street, whether a submission happened of not? If it was the street, maybe INSTEAD of a submission, the second guy deploys a pistol and goes to town. He can do it because he controlled the fight and went to where he wanted to go. The points in BJJ clearly show that. It is crazy to argue that working for points in that manner is somehow unrelated to fighting. I have been fortunate to be around the best competitors in BJJ history, and I have yet to find one of them who would not prefer to win a fight with a submission. But when going against your peer, that is not commonly possible. But doing it to a white belt, or someone who knows no grappling? It will be another Ryan Hall scenario.

    Someone wants to believe that BJJ training is watered down now and that most schools are only interested in competition? Cool, it does not harm me in any way for someone to think that. But it does not mean it is correct.
    Again we'll just have to agree to disagree on some things, but agree on some things.

    We can go on forever. Your experience is yours and mine is mine. We take and learn from our experiences and interpret them how we see it. We have differing views that's it. I'm sure it's not the first time and certainly won't be the last.

  4. #24

    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil Burch View Post
    I am a fairly mediocre black belt
    Kudos to you on your honesty. I can respect that.

  5. #25
    The Nostomaniac 03RN's Avatar
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    Aug 2017
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    New Hampshire
    "Also look at the first two techniques shown at the very beginning. At what point during Meg shooting in, taking the other guy down, establishing top control and going to the arm bar could the bottom guy eye gouge. or bite, or headbutt? Here is a hint to the answer - never"

    Lol. Sorry the first minute was embarrassing. Absolutely no sprawling or take down defense. Weak attacks. It really looked like one person was just flayling to get taken down.

    I'm not against bjj but please don't use the first minute to promote it.

    I've trained in bjj, traditional jj, mcmap, akido, judo, tsd, Okinawan karate in Okinawa, Muay Thai in Thailand, I wrestled in IL, and trained in the militich camp. I find value from good instruction in all styles. I have several black belts a d went to several world championshios fwiw
    Last edited by 03RN; 07-23-2019 at 05:42 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
    Kudos to you on your honesty. I can respect that.
    Get passive aggressive, lose your posting access to this area. Enjoy the rest of PF.

    Back to the discussion.
    #RESIST

  7. #27
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 03RN View Post
    ...and trained in the militich camp.
    Pat Miletich is pretty intense. What was that like?
    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  8. #28
    The Nostomaniac 03RN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidheshooter View Post
    Pat Miletich is pretty intense. What was that like?
    Considering I was in highschool and getting ready to leave for boot camp they were a huge asset to help my work ethic and really helped my defense.

    Illinois wrestling helped too.

    Jeremy Horn was dating a friend of my mom's at the time as well so I was fortunate to grapple with him while they worked out.

    Getting my ass kicked a few times by Matt Hughes back in 02 was fun too

  9. #29
    Site Supporter
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    Quote Originally Posted by 03RN View Post

    I've trained in bjj, traditional jj, mcmap, akido, judo, tsd, Okinawan karate in Okinawa, Muay Thai in Thailand, I wrestled in IL, and trained in the militich camp. I find value from good instruction in all styles. I have several black belts a d went to several world championshios fwiw
    And with your background, do you really believe some overweight neckbeard who never trained his martial art at full contact, when he tells you that your wrestling/BJJ/MT training wouldn't help because he can just magically win a fight by poking you in the eye or kicking you in the nutsack?

    Hell, working in a psych unit, I bet a good number of your patients have tried to do just that [emoji23]

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

  10. #30
    The Nostomaniac 03RN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    And with your background, do you really believe some overweight neckbeard who never trained his martial art at full contact, when he tells you that your wrestling/BJJ/MT training wouldn't help because he can just magically win a fight by poking you in the eye or kicking you in the nutsack?

    Hell, working in a psych unit, I bet a good number of your patients have tried to do just that [emoji23]

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk
    Absolutely not. That's why I find value in nearly any style taught competently. While sparring you will get inadvertently hit in the balls or eyes and still need to fight through it.

    OC spray qual while stationed in DC was actually really helpful for that as well.

    I recently fractured a bone during a restraint. Still had to finish it.

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