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Thread: Real BJJ

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by makul View Post
    Not sure what happened to my response or Cecil's quote.

    My response was what is on the video is not representative of what is currently being taught in BJJ schools. Many schools today have gone the way of sport jiu jitsu and training for points rather than what was originally intended. Does that mean that BJJ is a bad system? No not at all. What it means is that a lot of newer students are concentrating and learning things such as worm guard, berimbolo, etc. Ask how many have actually taken a punch or a strike or even delivered one and more likely than not you'll get blank stares. It's not a system issue though in the sense that is what the owner is teaching. One has to search out the right school to suit their endeavors. To be clear, there are different schools now. There those who concentrated on sport(majority), self defense (minority) and those whose techniques they teach equally flow between the 2 (think Marcelo Garcia).

    That is all I'm saying. This is not a swipe at BJJ especially since I've been doing it for a really long time, but rather the state I see.
    Can you give us statistics? How many schools have you seen this in over how many years?
    #RESIST

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil Burch View Post
    Again, I disagree. Taking a broad swipe at "most schools" and saying they mostly teach more one way is absolutely NOT what I experience in my travels and in my encounters with people visiting my academy. That more schools teach all competition and outnumber SD or general purpose BJJ is a trope that one side wants the public to believe, but it is 100% in contradiction to what I have seen firsthand. As a matter of fact, I am starting to get BJJ academies that directly want to bring me in and teach weapons based stuff to their regular students. I will be doing one in NorCal in August.

    I have taught at or trained in schools all over the world - multiple places in the UK, Portugal, Brazil, Singapore, Canada, Mexico, and almost every single state in the US. Are there a lot that focus on sport? Yes. "Most"? Not even the majority. The vast majority have their feet in both worlds. It might be a balance of 70/30 or something similar, but the gyms that are exclusively sport are really small. People tend to talk about them because a) there are a number of people trying to convince people it is true, and b) some of those such schools are some of the most visible such as the Miyao bros, or Atos. That is perception, not reality.
    We'll have to agree to disagree. I too have been around the world and more often than not academies are teaching the latest and greatest guard. My experience is totally different than yours.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    Can you give us statistics? How many schools have you seen this in over how many years?
    To quantify it would be impossible. You would have to base your conclusion based on your experience and the schools you visit and there are just too many around.

    As to how many schools I've personally visited and over how many years? Well I've done bjj continuously since 1998 and have gotten to travel to different places and continents and make it a point to train in what ever city or country I'm in.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by makul View Post
    To quantify it would be impossible. You would have to base your conclusion based on your experience and the schools you visit and there are just too many around.

    As to how many schools I've personally visited and over how many years? Well I've done bjj continuously since 1998 and have gotten to travel to different places and continents and make it a point to train in what ever city or country I'm in.
    One thing that helps me in deciding who I will believe in a disagreement is knowing whom I’m speaking with and their background knowledge. This is NOT me demanding that you tell us about yourself, but...Cecil, SouthNarc, runcible, and Paul are “known goods” with professional data corroborating their knowledge and assertions.
    #RESIST

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    One thing that helps me in deciding who I will believe in a disagreement is knowing whom I’m speaking with and their background knowledge. This is NOT me demanding that you tell us about yourself, but...Cecil, SouthNarc, runcible, and Paul are “known goods” with professional data corroborating their knowledge and assertions.
    I can understand that, but I’m just a civilian with no business interest. That being said the statistics and data you ask for do not exist. Just like you’ll never find hard data or statistics in what position is taught first and what the first technique taught from said position (the exception would be those who belong to large association such as Gracie Barra). One just has to go out and experience it. Of course don't take my word for it, go out and actually take a bjj class. Pay attention to the techniques taught especially as a student advances. Academies typically give a few classes out to prospective students. BJJ is popular enough nowadays that they are readily available pretty much in any major city.

    Ultimately this is a disagreement on not the efficacy of bjj, but rather what is being taught nowadays. Again the best way to judge is to go out and experience what is being offered in your area. At worse you get a good workout at best you pick up a new hobby that adds to your knowledge.
    Last edited by makul; 06-08-2019 at 01:36 PM.

  6. #16
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    Do a lot of gyms that teach these fancy new guards, heel hooks and wristlocks really just gloss over the basics though?

    I mean sure, maybe not all of them teach striking, but you can find a MMA or boxing gym nearby pretty easily and have like 90 percent of your unarmed self defense sorted out in two years of work.

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

  7. #17
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    Jun 2017

    Megaton

    I train at McVicker’s under Megaton... I love when he comes for seminars, he is an amazing guy to watch. The intensity and ferocity he displays is something you can only experience.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    Do a lot of gyms that teach these fancy new guards, heel hooks and wristlocks really just gloss over the basics though?

    I mean sure, maybe not all of them teach striking, but you can find a MMA or boxing gym nearby pretty easily and have like 90 percent of your unarmed self defense sorted out in two years of work.

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk
    Funny thing is in my experience, the gyms that belong to a large association with a standardized curriculum are more likely to stress the basics and keep returning to it.

    Absolutely you can find an mma gym, but the training is also harder and you’ll get banged up. Not everyone will be up for that.

  9. #19
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    From an outsider looking in I think there is always going to be the sport/street divide. Shooting has it too.

    Competition is often the public face of a martial art. When people see that, even if it is a fragment of the whole, it gets magnified. And some folks see that and think it is the whole, or the biggest part of the art.

    I've been in plenty of karate schools that will hit you hard, and often while engaging in standing grappling. They will take you down or throw you and they have some actual BJJ in their training. That doesn't make them the majority of schools though. Pity they aren't.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    Do a lot of gyms that teach these fancy new guards, heel hooks and wristlocks really just gloss over the basics though?
    I don't think it's so much glossing over the basics as much as it is the way BJJ is taught at most places. Yes, some schools now have beginner/fundamental classes, but more often than not you are in the same class, drilling and learning the same techniques as the purple, brown and black belts. The upper belts need and want to learn the techniques and not just the old school fundamentals. So as a new white belt, if the instructor is teaching the deep half guard, you are going to be working the deep half guard, regardless of whether you know the most basic hip bump sweep or not, and regardless of whether deep half guard is appropriate for self defense.

    In 1994 so many of the new sport techniques so common now hadn't even been invented. Had the berimbolo, 50/50 and all the lapel guards been around, I'm sure some of the guys that we look back on with nostalgia and reverently call old school would actually have been teaching the new techniques. It was easy to stick to the 'fundamentals' when only the 'fundamentals' exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    I mean sure, maybe not all of them teach striking, but you can find a MMA or boxing gym nearby pretty easily and have like 90 percent of your unarmed self defense sorted out in two years of work.
    Can you, though? Real boxing gyms are pretty few and far between these days, especially outside of urban areas. See the comments below about training at a real MMA gym.


    Quote Originally Posted by makul View Post
    Funny thing is in my experience, the gyms that belong to a large association with a standardized curriculum are more likely to stress the basics and keep returning to it.
    Gracie Barra is a good example. Big school, standardized curriculum and top competitors, but new guys have to go through the fundamentals and literally check the box on self defense techniques before being allowed to roll. Most other schools don't have a set curriculum.

    Quote Originally Posted by makul View Post

    Absolutely you can find an mma gym, but the training is also harder and you’ll get banged up. Not everyone will be up for that.
    True. I wager the vast, vast majority of P-F members are not up for training at a real MMA gym. I know I'm not, and I like to think I'm harder than the average person.


    -------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by makul View Post
    Unfortunately that is not the bjj that is taught it the majority of school now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil Burch View Post
    Actually, I disagree. I have trained literally all over the world and the majority of academies are more like that.
    The majority of academies are more like what? The sparring in the first part of the video, the Vale Tudo Fridays, training in the parking lot, training on only carpet??? That hasn't been my experience. I can say with complete certainty that the majority of academies are not doing those things.

    Far be it from me to go against Cecil, and I absolutely think everyone interested in self-defense should practice BJJ. BJJ works. Whether you are at a sport oriented gym or a more traditional gym, you'll learn things that are essential.

    With that out of the way -

    My experience matches makuls. The sport influence absolutely exists and has changed what is taught. I can only imagine that the guys that gravitated to BJJ in 1994 were interested in fighting (if not necessarily self defense) since most had practiced a more traditional martial art before becoming disillusioned or discovering BJJ. So they were often 'fighters', so I understand it.

    Nowadays guys start BJJ for fitness or because it's 'cool' or looks interesting or whatever. They aren't necessarily dudes looking to test their mettle. They aren't crossing over from full contact karate. Lot of guys say the classes these days aren't a brutal as they used to be. Is there truth to that or is it the "I was in the 'Last hard class'" type of thing? Probably a little of both.

    Furthermore, the comp scene has exploded. Fifteen years ago comps were few and far between. Now they are common. Even if everyone in the gym isn't competing, many of the hardcore regulars are, and they are driving what is taught and what techniques are emphasized. Most IBJJF World titles are won on points and more than a few are won on just advantages. (I just checked. In the 2018 IBJJF Worlds, there was one submission in the finals, four wins by points, two wins by advantages and one win by referee's decision plus an injury and a close out.) These guys are fighting for points as much as submissions. Sport BJJ has changed BJJ.

    To be fair, I should mention the rise of submission-only tournaments, which have become more popular for PPV spectactors and as a backlash against the point fighting in IBJJF.

    Just to be perfectly clear - I agree with Cecil's overall point. If you aren't practicing BJJ because you heard sport BJJ has watered it down or because you heard it didn't work on the streetz, then you are misguided and missing out.

    Before LL asks - I took my first BJJ class in 2003 with Ricardinho and Comprido in Copacabana. I've trained off and on, mostly off, since then on 3 continents. Trained at BTT and watched a young unknown guy named Toquinho tear legs off before anyone had heard of him. Rolled with Galvao and Ryan Hall. Spent time at a Lloyd Irvin affiliate before it cut ties with him after the rape scandal. Wilson Reis taught me the Wilson pass, which I could never get to work. I was looking for a more self defense so switched to a gym run by a Royler Gracie BB that is a bodyguard of some sort that was supposedly self defense oriented. It was the most old school place I've seen - bow to the picture of Helio and listen to stories about how Rickson still submits current IBJJF world champs in secret, invitation-only rolls, etc - and yet we always started from our knees. No striking, no live takedowns, just a bigger emphasis on submissions over. Certainly no Vale Tudo Fridays or whipping up on karatekas. Even though I dropped some names of famous competitors, I've never competed.
    Last edited by BigD; 06-10-2019 at 01:01 AM.

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