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Thread: Beretta M9 failures

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetfire View Post
    I would be willing to bet that the pistols above hadn't had their recoil springs changed...ever. I can't speak to other service's maintenance standards, but I know that the USAF Technical Order (which is the same manual the Army uses) says that the recoil spring on the M9 is supposed to be changed when it's shorter than the barrel. Considering the factory length of the spring is about an inch longer than the barrel, you can imagine how many cycles it takes to compress an inch off that spring. It's a huge number, way more than the 3,000 round interval that Beretta recommends the spring be changed.

    A lot of the M9s in inventory are going on 20-30 years old, and during their service lifetime have seen very little maintenance. I was at an AFRC shooting course a few months back where we shot 1,000 rounds each over the course of a week and we deadlined three or four guns, all of which were broken locking blocks. The bottom line is that the military's guideline for when to change the spring isn't nearly often enough, and training guns especially will get pulled out of inventory repeatedly and shot. Run that cycle for 15 years and it's no wonder guns crack in half.
    Another question is what ammo are they Shooting ? Many .Mil ranges are requiring lead free ammo only due to environmental or impact area issues. IME lead free / frangible ammo greatly increases the rate of wear on the gun.

  2. #22
    Site Supporter jetfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Another question is what ammo are they Shooting ? Many .Mil ranges are requiring lead free ammo only due to environmental or impact area issues. IME lead free / frangible ammo greatly increases the rate of wear on the gun.
    I don't know, because I don't know what unit it was or what range it was. I do know that the DOD standard is if you're shooting indoors, you must shoot the 100gr frangible round. I forget the official designation for it. That's what we were shooting when we smashed all those guns.

    The thing about the frang round isn't that it's especially hard on guns, it's that some lead free primers eat barrels alive. The stuff we shoot doesn't have a lead free primer so that's less of an issue.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetfire View Post
    I don't know, because I don't know what unit it was or what range it was. I do know that the DOD standard is if you're shooting indoors, you must shoot the 100gr frangible round. I forget the official designation for it. That's what we were shooting when we smashed all those guns.

    The thing about the frang round isn't that it's especially hard on guns, it's that some lead free primers eat barrels alive. The stuff we shoot doesn't have a lead free primer so that's less of an issue.
    Lead free primers are an issue but not the only issue with lead free rounds. When FLETC went lead free on most of their ranges we started seeing broken extractors and takedown levers on new officers guns within a year out of the academy. They determined the lead free ammo was hotter / higher pressure in order to function reliably with the lighter bullets. Solution was to simply replace the extractors and recoil springs on all guns before sending the newbies out to the field with them.

  4. #24
    For most support units in the military, M9s are an afterthought. I knew multiple NCOs who went downrange with no handgun time (yet command ensured they attended Cultural Appreciation briefings). Between iffy maintenance at the armorer level and poorly educated end users , itís no surprise to me the M9 has a bad reputation in the military.

    The 1911 had the same problem in its day , and the M17 will acquire the same rep in the next war.
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  5. #25
    Site Supporter JSGlock34's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    Irrelevant. They all need to meet the same standards as OEM and OEMs aren't the only ones who know how to make parts to print.
    Disagree entirely. Experience with early Checkmate magazines is a prime example of a third party produced item introducing problems with the M9.
    "When the phone rang, Parker was in the garage, killing a man."

  6. #26
    #LowLife4Life Bigghoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    In the absence of water, nothing.
    I've been told that chlorinated brake cleaner can make metal parts brittle over time. Brakes get replaced at regular intervals anyway so it's not a huge deal there. It's not like I did labratory testing myself so I wouldn't know for sure.
    Does anyone like pineapple on their pizza guns?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigghoss View Post
    I've been told that chlorinated brake cleaner can make metal parts brittle over time.
    Not in the absence of extreme heat and humidity, like the inside of a boiler.

    Spraying a gun with chlorinated brake cleaner will do absolutely nothing to its steel and aluminum parts. Plastic parts? Not sure about those, not my area of expertise. The gun world is filled to the brim with serious misunderstanding and outright fabrications about materials and engineering concepts.

    This place is fond of saying "stay in your lane". This is my lane.
    Last edited by Alpha Sierra; 06-05-2019 at 11:53 AM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSGlock34 View Post
    Disagree entirely. Experience with early Checkmate magazines is a prime example of a third party produced item introducing problems with the M9.
    And the original locking block was a prime example of an OEM part introducing problems with the M9.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    They should meet the same standards, but often they donít.
    Nobody's perfect, but there is this impression in the gun world that subcontract/outsourced parts are generally inferior and that OEM parts are generally superior. I doubt someone has the metrics to prove it one way or the other.

    My experience in OEM and contract manufacturing says that there are shitty OEMs in about the same proportion as there are shitty subs.

  10. #30
    Site Supporter JSGlock34's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    Nobody's perfect, but there is this impression in the gun world that subcontract/outsourced parts are generally inferior and that OEM parts are generally superior. I doubt someone has the metrics to prove it one way or the other.

    My experience in OEM and contract manufacturing says that there are shitty OEMs in about the same proportion as there are shitty subs.
    If only someone would study whether rebuilt weapons work as well...

    Soldiers issued a rebuilt weapon were more likely to report a repair while in theater. Soldiers carrying rebuilt M16s were 2.5 times more likely to have had or have needed a repair. Although not statistically significant by two thousandths, those issued a rebuilt M9 were much more likely to experience a repair (the lack of significance is likely due to the very few reports (6) of rebuilt M9s).. Center for Naval Analysis: Soldier Perspectives on Small Arms in Combat
    "When the phone rang, Parker was in the garage, killing a man."

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