Page 5 of 9 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 88

Thread: Beretta M9 failures

  1. #41
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Auburn, WA
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    Post a link to the entire study. That way we can all see their definition of "rebuilt", and who did the rebuilds.
    A concurrent issue pertaining to locking block replacement is checking to ensure that they properly fit in the individual gun-and that applies to both how they nest in the barrel lug AND how the wings index within the slide slots where they move vertically, under pressure during the slide reciprocation process. Improperly fitted replacement locking blocks can fail at an accelerated rate. Add indifferent/non-existent lubrication and recoil spring replacement, and you've got the potential for a perfect failure storm-and that's before delving into the intrinsic quality (or lack thereof) of the 3rd party locking blocks.

    This is probably even more of an issue with military M9 locking blocks, due to the very unfortunate excessive component replacement intervals, despite manufacturer specifications and recommendations-there is likely going do be more wear, and more wear imparted on the slide rails, meaning that a replacement block with perfectly symmetrical wings will need to have the wings carefully reconfigured so that they match the slide rails' accumulated wear.

    I suspect that the odds of that proper locking block analysis and fitting happening are somewhere within the range of "slim" to "none" given the apparent state of military M9 care and maintenance at pretty much every level.

    Best, Jon
    Last edited by JonInWA; 06-05-2019 at 02:43 PM.

  2. #42
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    The Sticks
    Quote Originally Posted by STI View Post
    Sarcasm intended?

    Did it change land warfare by introducing the shoot-you-in-the-ass-when-dropped feature?
    Sarcasm? I'm not so sure..I mean for what they paid for them, (my understanding is, about $200 apeice including extras) if one of these has a issue that can't be fixed by changing a recoil spring, or issuing new mags, then it's probably cheaper to just cut it up and throw the peices in the dumpster, and issue a new pistol..At $200 a pop, I can't see the military spending money rebuilding these things..it'd be easier, and probably cheaper, to dump them in the ocean and buy new..(or give them to the CMP to sell "as is" for about $100) Honestly, I'm begining to believe that's the game plan here..
    Last edited by ralph; 06-05-2019 at 02:15 PM.

  3. #43
    Member Alpha Sierra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Western Ohio
    Quote Originally Posted by David C. View Post
    Do you want to try that again?

    "Certain austenitic stainless steels and aluminium alloys crack in the presence of chlorides..." from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress...etals_attacked
    It's not as simple as simple contact with chlorides. There's a lot left out of Wikipedia but if you want to hang your hat on it, you win.

  4. #44
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Auburn, WA
    Quote Originally Posted by Suvorov View Post
    Luckily we now have the Sig M17 that not only has changed land warfare but has likely ended all issues around maintenance.
    Superb sarcasm aside, as a former field-grade Army officer, I REALLY wish that Glock had won the M17/M18 contract; in my opinion it's the best suited weapon for the military both because of it's intrinsic qualities, but almost equally because it can perform successfully in spite of indifferent and/or insufficient lubrication and maintenance, and with the proper parts kits most unit armorers can successfully (and quickly) perform most repairs and maintenance tasks previously reserved for higher echelon maintenance organizations, due to the simplicity of a Glock's detailed disassembly and reassembly.

    But that's probably beating an already pulverized dead horse....

    Best, Jon
    Last edited by JonInWA; 06-05-2019 at 02:17 PM.

  5. #45
    Member Alpha Sierra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Western Ohio
    Quote Originally Posted by JonInWA View Post
    Hardly. There's more than ample anecdotal evidence from well regarded sources that the quality of aftermarket components utilized by DoD is highly suspect. Given the lack of operator/unit/echelon maintenance that seems to plague the M9 throughout it's issue in the US military, arguably it can be difficult to pinpoint the causal effect of locking block failures, but an intrinsic lower quality seems to be a constant.
    I don't pay attention to anecdotal evidence. If someone has objective evidence of locking blocks (or any other part) not meeting print and/nor not being inspected by the correct methods or at the specified frequency/batch size post it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by JonInWA View Post
    The M9 magazine saga(s) are somewhat of a case in point. DoD in its infinite wisdom specified and required the initial magazine contractor (Check-Mate Industries) to provide a magazine tune with a crackle-finish, both inside and out. While that worked acceptably in a temperate climate (i.e., Europe and North America), it was an utter disaster in SW Asia, with fine, hard particulate sand and dust that lodged the ridges of the finishes, precluding cartridge movements in the magazine tube. When Check-Mate realized the issue, they came out with their dry-film finished magazine, which, along with the Beretta sand-resistant PVD coated magazines specified by the USMC for their M9A1s (where the coating and stamped "stand-off" inner tube strakes preclude sand issues) resolved the issues. Check-mate then offered, for a very nominal sum (significantly less than a dollar per magazine) to remove the crackle-finish from previous magazines and recoat with the dry-film finish; DoD declined, so the two Check-Mate finished magazines are intermixed, with the end result being Check-Mate perpetually blamed for sub-standard magazines.
    So Check-Mate made the magazines as specified, the magazines sucked, so it was Check-Mate's fault? LOL

  6. #46
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Auburn, WA
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    I don't pay attention to anecdotal evidence. If someone has objective evidence of locking blocks (or any other part) not meeting print and/nor not being inspected by the correct methods or at the specified frequency/batch size post it up.


    So Check-Mate made the magazines as specified, the magazines sucked, so it was Check-Mate's fault? LOL
    Although apparently it's somewhat of a fine distinction, intrinsically the Check-Mate magazines as produced in accordance with the DoD contract MANDATED crackle-finish didn't suck, provided they were utilized in climates without the hard, fine dust and grit particulate prevalent in SW Asia. The problem was undoubtedly accentuated by exposure to high velocity airborne dust and grit, such as from sandstorms, vehicle operations, and helicopter rotor wash (or prop/jet wash). The problem was not due to improper or inferior magazine construction; it was due to the finish mandated and applied as specified by contract.

    Historically, Check-Mate has been damned, despite the fact that the initial contract specifications required the finish (which worked well in more temperate climates, but the subsequent dry-film finish is a superior theater and world-wide magazine finish solution). And that despite them coming up with a solution (the dry-film finish), it was not retroactively applied to existing crackle-finished magazines, despite Check-Mate's offer to do so at a very user-friendly price.

    Regarding the locking block issues/intrinsic quality, you might want to query Dr. Gary Roberts, AKA DocGKR on the forum here. He has previously experienced this and posted on it, and has excellent credentials in conjunction with his observations and conclusions.

    Best, Jon
    Last edited by JonInWA; 06-05-2019 at 02:46 PM.

  7. #47
    It is telling the M9 design has a very different reputation between the military & US law enforcement.
    The Minority Marksman.
    "When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
    -a Ch'an Buddhist axiom.

  8. #48
    E. Langdon, who sometimes appears here, once said of Beretta maintenance:

    "I put in a spring pack (LTT package: recoil spring, trigger spring, trigger bar spring, cost $5) every 5,000 rounds. This keeps the trigger spring from ever breaking, I tear down the top end every 10,000 rounds, clean out all the carbon and unburned powder and install a new firing pin, firing pin spring and striker. Cost for these parts is $11. At 20,000 rounds I rebuild the top end. I replace all the slide parts subject to wear; extractor, springs, firing pin and such. Cost for parts is $40. I'll also fit a new locking block ($70) at this point."

    The Army sure isn't tracking usage and doing preventive maintenance like that.
    For one thing, if you asked the supply sergeant for a spare spring he would tell you that if he gave you a spring, he wouldn't have 100% inventory and would look bad if inspected. (I actually had that happen to me at my civilian agency when I requested spill control supplies from the warehouse clerk. I had to go pretty far up the chain of command to get supplies.)
    Code Name: JET STREAM

  9. #49
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Auburn, WA
    After discussions with Erik Stern at BUSA (and a p-f member and participant), I proactively replaced my Gen 2 locking block at approximately the 12,000 round count; it was still performing perfectly, with no evidence of cracking or accentuated wear (and I only use standard-pressure 9mm in my 92D), since 12K was the low end of problems potentially cropping up, I decided it would be prudent to replace at that point, especially since mine is used for duty, concealed carry, and self/home-defense, in addition to IDPA and ASI competition. My current Gen 3 locking block I'll replace at the 20K roundcount interval. I had no issues with fitting the replacement Gen 3 block; no additional fitting was required in my particular case.

    For recoil, extractor and trigger return springs I'm currently using Wilson's Bullet Proof chrome silicon springs, reputedly lifetime springs.

    Best, Jon
    Last edited by JonInWA; 06-05-2019 at 03:13 PM.

  10. #50
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Auburn, WA
    Quote Originally Posted by jetfire View Post
    I would be willing to bet that the pistols above hadn't had their recoil springs changed...ever. I can't speak to other service's maintenance standards, but I know that the USAF Technical Order (which is the same manual the Army uses) says that the recoil spring on the M9 is supposed to be changed when it's shorter than the barrel. Considering the factory length of the spring is about an inch longer than the barrel, you can imagine how many cycles it takes to compress an inch off that spring. It's a huge number, way more than the 3,000 round interval that Beretta recommends the spring be changed.

    A lot of the M9s in inventory are going on 20-30 years old, and during their service lifetime have seen very little maintenance. I was at an AFRC shooting course a few months back where we shot 1,000 rounds each over the course of a week and we deadlined three or four guns, all of which were broken locking blocks. The bottom line is that the military's guideline for when to change the spring isn't nearly often enough, and training guns especially will get pulled out of inventory repeatedly and shot. Run that cycle for 15 years and it's no wonder guns crack in half.
    A huge red flag is when in an organization selective non-assigned weapons are continuously and cumulatively used as qualifications mules. Essentially, a user has no pride or responsibility inherent to use AND maintenance, as opposed to an assigned weapon subject to leadership inspections (hopefully, but in this era, who knows...) and actual dependence upon as a life-saving, mission-essential device.

    Best, Jon
    Last edited by JonInWA; 06-05-2019 at 03:21 PM.

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •