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Thread: Beretta M9 failures

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    Nobody's perfect, but there is this impression in the gun world that subcontract/outsourced parts are generally inferior and that OEM parts are generally superior. I doubt someone has the metrics to prove it one way or the other.

    My experience in OEM and contract manufacturing says that there are shitty OEMs in about the same proportion as there are shitty subs.
    In the civilian gun world, sure. Plenty of actual better than milspec out there.

    The other factor is 3rd party parts for .mil is how those contracts are awarded.

    Letís say LTT and billy bobs, bait, tackle, machine shop and adult novelty of Hot springs AR are competing for a contract for replacement locking blocks. LTT is a veteran owned business, but even though Billy Bob is not a veteran, his wife, who owns 51% on paper is a disabled, female, Eskimo veteran so billy Bob gets the contract even though LTTs parts are better. And of course ten years later billy Bob is arrested by federal authorities for buying locking blocks made in Taiwan, not doing the require QC checks and falsely claiming they made in the USA.

  2. #32
    Site Supporter Suvorov's Avatar
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    Luckily we now have the Sig M17 that not only has changed land warfare but has likely ended all issues around maintenance.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSGlock34 View Post
    If only someone would study whether rebuilt weapons work as well...

    Soldiers issued a rebuilt weapon were more likely to report a repair while in theater. Soldiers carrying rebuilt M16s were 2.5 times more likely to have had or have needed a repair. Although not statistically significant by two thousandths, those issued a rebuilt M9 were much more likely to experience a repair (the lack of significance is likely due to the very few reports (6) of rebuilt M9s).. Center for Naval Analysis: Soldier Perspectives on Small Arms in Combat
    Post a link to the entire study. That way we can all see their definition of "rebuilt", and who did the rebuilds.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    In the civilian gun world, sure. Plenty of actual better than milspec out there.

    The other factor is 3rd party parts for .mil is how those contracts are awarded.

    Letís say LTT and billy bobs, bait, tackle, machine shop and adult novelty of Hot springs AR are competing for a contract for replacement locking blocks. LTT is a veteran owned business, but even though Billy Bob is not a veteran, his wife, who owns 51% on paper is a disabled, female, Eskimo veteran so billy Bob gets the contract even though LTTs parts are better. And of course ten years later billy Bob is arrested by federal authorities for buying locking blocks made in Taiwan, not doing the require QC checks and falsely claiming they made in the USA.
    You know, I was going to bring up the difference between contract award and contract management. And list up a minor sampling of the Federal Acquisition Regulations that all businesses doing work for the government have to meet. And my experience dealing with Defense Contract Management Agency and its people.

    But it would be of no use.

    I'm sure these pistols all fell apart because they were rebuilt, or were rebuilt with shitty parts; absolutely no reason to believe they fell apart because they weren't maintained at all by anyone.
    Last edited by Alpha Sierra; 06-05-2019 at 12:32 PM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    You know, I was going to bring up the difference between contract award and contract management. And list up a minor sampling of the Federal Acquisition Regulations that all businesses doing work for the government have to meet. And my experience dealing with Defense Contract Management Agency and its people.

    But it would be of no use.

    I'm sure these pistols all fell apart because they were rebuilt, or were rebuilt with shitty parts; absolutely no reason to believe they fell apart because they weren't maintained at all by anyone.
    That all business doing business with the Govt are supposed to meet. Some do. Some donít. Profiteering off the military is nothing new.

  6. #36
    Site Supporter JSGlock34's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    Post a link to the entire study. That way we can all see their definition of "rebuilt", and who did the rebuilds.
    And you wonít find that in the study, and I really donít care. You think whether a firearm was rebuilt is ďirrelevantĒ and I think it is quite relevant to the discussion. Iím perfectly fine to agree to disagree. Have a great day.
    "When the phone rang, Parker was in the garage, killing a man."

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    Not in the absence of extreme heat and humidity, like the inside of a boiler.

    Spraying a gun with chlorinated brake cleaner will do absolutely nothing to its steel and aluminum parts. Plastic parts? Not sure about those, not my area of expertise. The gun world is filled to the brim with serious misunderstanding and outright fabrications about materials and engineering concepts.

    This place is fond of saying "stay in your lane". This is my lane.
    Do you want to try that again?

    "Certain austenitic stainless steels and aluminium alloys crack in the presence of chlorides..." from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress...etals_attacked
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  8. #38
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    Irrelevant. They all need to meet the same standards as OEM and OEMs aren't the only ones who know how to make parts to print.
    Hardly. There's more than ample anecdotal evidence from well regarded sources that the quality of aftermarket components utilized by DoD is highly suspect. Given the lack of operator/unit/echelon maintenance that seems to plague the M9 throughout it's issue in the US military, arguably it can be difficult to pinpoint the causal effect of locking block failures, but an intrinsic lower quality seems to be a constant.

    The M9 magazine saga(s) are somewhat of a case in point. DoD in its infinite wisdom specified and required the initial magazine contractor (Check-Mate Industries) to provide a magazine tube with a crackle-finish, both inside and out. While that worked acceptably in a temperate climate (i.e., Europe and North America), it was an utter disaster in SW Asia, with fine, hard particulate sand and dust that lodged the ridges of the finishes, precluding cartridge movements in the magazine tube. When Check-Mate realized the issue, they came out with their dry-film finished magazine, which, along with the Beretta sand-resistant PVD coated magazines specified by the USMC for their M9A1s (where the coating and stamped "stand-off" inner tube strakes preclude sand issues) resolved the issues. Check-mate then offered, for a very nominal sum (significantly less than a dollar per magazine) to remove the crackle-finish from previous magazines and recoat with the dry-film finish; DoD declined, so the two Check-Mate finished magazines are intermixed, with the end result being Check-Mate perpetually blamed for sub-standard magazines.

    There are various contracting formulas applied by DoD towards their aftermarket component vendors-and inherent quality/performance is only one of them, and I suspect that differential criteria weighting may be employed in the contract letting process, depending upon the vagaries of the political winds prevalent during the process, etc. HCM's hypothetical example in post #31 of the thread is unfortunately quite illustrative....

    Best, Jon
    Last edited by JonInWA; 06-05-2019 at 02:19 PM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    Nobody's perfect, but there is this impression in the gun world that subcontract/outsourced parts are generally inferior and that OEM parts are generally superior. I doubt someone has the metrics to prove it one way or the other.

    My experience in OEM and contract manufacturing says that there are shitty OEMs in about the same proportion as there are shitty subs.
    Are you familiar at all with the QC requirements inherent to the M9/M10 pistol contracts? Both individual and batch testing was specified, and it's probably not a coincidence that two of the currently highly regarded pistols with significant miitary/government contracts are the Beretta 92 and SIG-Sauer P2022, which is probably the only SIG that hasn't seen progressive parts cheapening and declining QC throughout its production.

    I'd like to hear about how your specific experiences with OEM and contract management are specifically pertinent to this discussion.

    Best, Jon

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Suvorov View Post
    Luckily we now have the Sig M17 that not only has changed land warfare but has likely ended all issues around maintenance.
    Sarcasm intended?

    Did it change land warfare by introducing the shoot-you-in-the-ass-when-dropped feature?

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