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Thread: But it looks cool...

  1. #11
    Member KevH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gadfly View Post
    We do an annual inspection of every firearm. And every year we find strange stuff.
    We did too until a certain person was put in charge of training (the position that coordinates it) and decided it was a waste of time and money. We (the firearms team) fought it, but we weren't going to win.

    I can't tell you how many problems we averted (especially when Glock 22's were the rage). I caught broken strikers, broken roll pins on SIG slides, a broken frame rail in an "E" series Glock and countless little things that would have gone unnoticed until it was too late.

    Thankfully I just talked to his replacement today and it sounds like we are going to start it back up this fall. I'm dreading what I'm going to find after a four year hiatus.

  2. #12
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    Interesting insight. I left the Secret Service in 2016 and we were still using TDA p229s in 357. You couldn't change d*ck except for like 4 authorized grips (stock, hogue with finger grooves, hogue without finger grooves, and some aluminum things). I never felt like the gun we were issued would make much difference, the person employing it is the key. I kept the stock grips on my gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polecat View Post
    He was advising a young lady purchasing her first gun. He steered her away from the light weight snub, and striker fired autos, explained the advantages of a 4” K frame. She walked a way a wiser young woman.
    If my wife is being approached by would be thief/rapist/murderer(s) I'd rather a G17/P229/P30/M&P9/almostanythingwithmoreroundsandbettershootabilityt hanarevolver be in her hands
    Last edited by ChaseN; 06-04-2019 at 10:00 PM.

  3. #13
    banana republican blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaseN View Post
    If my wife is being approached by would be thief/rapist/murderer(s) I'd rather a G17/P229/P30/M&P9/almostanythingwithmoreroundsandbettershootabilityt hanarevolver be in her hands
    Just the opposite here. The simplicity of the revolver, especially at close range in the home where she might have to employ a firearm, is the reason why her assigned firearm in the event of a break-in / home invasion is a revolver and not a semi-automatic.

    Mileage will clearly vary on a case by case basis depending on ability, willingness to train, etc.


    ETA: Sorry to sidetrack the discussion. Back to Semi-autos and fruitless / needless embellishment...
    Last edited by blues; 06-04-2019 at 10:08 PM.
    There's nothing civil about this war.

  4. #14
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    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by blues View Post
    Just the opposite here. The simplicity of the revolver, especially at close range in the home where she might have to employ a firearm, is the reason why her assigned firearm in the event of a break-in / home invasion is a revolver and not a semi-automatic.

    Mileage will clearly vary on a case by case basis depending on ability, willingness to train, etc.
    The guns I listed are plenty simple to operate, and it's easy for anyone (but especially an inexperienced person) to pull a number of rounds off target in a stressful situation, particularly with a DA pull on every round like a revolver. Coupled with limited capacity, basically zero chance of reloading, the very real possibility of multiple assailants, and the often questionable efficacy of handgun rounds, well I guess you can imagine my conclusion on revolvers for the inexperienced.
    Last edited by ChaseN; 06-04-2019 at 10:12 PM.

  5. #15
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    I am issued an M&P, but in my job I can carry from a pretty decent list of choices (usually a G19 or a CZ). While I never went full Salient/Agency, I did dabble with some different connectors and barrels in my Glocks, along with a fair number of sights. Never had function issues, but never saw a big benefit either.

    With the Gen 5 guns I can truly say I have not changed one part internally, and the only other change has been a grip plug and a lime ringed, narrower front sight (I do not pick up the red/orange very well). Particularly with Glocks I must say the more I have shot them, the less I change them or use non factory parts.
    Polite Professional

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaseN View Post
    The guns I listed are plenty simple to operate, and it's easy for anyone (but especially an inexperienced person) to pull a number of rounds off target in a stressful situation, particularly with a DA pull on every round like a revolver. Coupled with limited capacity, basically zero chance of reloading, the very real possibility of multiple assailants, and the often questionable efficacy of handgun rounds, well I guess you can imagine my conclusion on revolvers for the inexperienced.
    If you wife is a "gun person" and likes to shoot enough to understand the cycle of operation of a handgun - go for it. If she is a like a lot of people, and looks at a gun like the fire extinguisher in their kitchen or a spare tire in their car, then a revolver makes a whole lot of sense.

    I have seen multiple ND's by LEO's in the past 20 plus years and the majority of them were caused by LEO's who did not understand the cycle of operation of their semi auto handgun. Same with most ND's in the military. NDs are a very real, and common "negative outcome."

    For non "gun people" the admin handling advantages of a revolver outweigh its other limitations.

  7. #17
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    The only unreliable Glock I've seen was an aftermarket frankengun in 10mm. People kept referring to it as the "bear gun." I wondered why it still had a front sight.
    .
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    Not another dime.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevH View Post
    I'm going to take some flak for this post, but here goes...

    BACKGROUND

    In the late 1990’s, when I started down the whole police rabbit hole and dinosaurs roamed the earth, the traditional double action auto pistol ruled the world. Most departments issued some flavor of Beretta, S&W 3rd Gen, Sig Sauer, H&K USP or Glock. Most departments, around here at least, had transitioned to 40 S&W, although there were a few holdouts that stuck with 9mm usually because they had no money to “upgrade.” There were still a few guys close to retirement carrying S&W wheelguns and the truly high speed guys, like a select few departments and some SWAT dudes, carried some flavor of customized 1911…I say customized because Kimber hadn’t really busted on scene and turned that particular market upside down. Outside of the 1911’s though, the universal truth to almost all the other aforementioned guns is that they were all completely stock.

    If you had an opened-minded department they may have allowed you to do something crazy like change the factory grips out for a set of Hogues…and maybe…just maybe…you could throw on a set of Trijicon night sights. Super progressive places may let you send a Glock frame out to Robar to have them cut off the backstrap and slap on some of their proprietary goop to give it a “better” grip (I did and regretted it almost immediately upon receiving the gun back).



    The nice thing about all these guns is that they almost all worked and straight out of the box. There also was very little if any variation. A Glock 17 either came with night sights or it did not. Same with Beretta except for when INOX was a choice. With a SIG P226 or P229 you got to pick the caliber, the finish (Nitron or two-tone), DA/SA or DAO and whether or not it came with night sights. The nice thing was the quality control on all these guns was extremely good. You could literally take thirty SIGs completely apart dump them in a barrel and rebuild thirty guns with all the parts mixed and matched.

    During the early 2000’s there started to be some variation. Beretta and LTT came out with the uber cool Elite and the Vertec. SIG had some special editions followed by the SRT and DAK triggers and then some folks like Ghost started to come out with different connectors for Glock. New finishes like Black-T and NP3 (fairly proprietary and applied by only their respective vendors) had been around since the 1990’s done by a select few, but by the late 2000’s everyone and their cousin was applying Cerakote or some spray and bake in a commercial store front or in their garage.



    I had spent (wasted) lots of money on custom 1911’s already, but the aforementioned guns really didn’t need anything custom. They were what they were….and furthermore they were good to go right out of the box.

    Late 2000’s I remember going to a pistol class taught by Kyle Lamb and Mike Pannone and before the decade was over a Blackwater USA class taught by the man himself Bill Go. What all three instructors had in common is that they were shooting stock Glocks as were most of the attendees with a few classic SIGs and 1911’s sprinkled in.

    The point is that up until about 2010 or so most of guns used for social purposes, especially for police duty carry, were pretty darn stock.

    Then the wheels fell off…




    INDUSTRY CHANGE AND SOCIAL MEDIA

    I’m really going to give the credit to Youtube here with a dash of Instagram and to guys like Costa.

    I’ll also give credit to the folks that cheapened SigArms and the whole Glock Gen4 debacle.

    I would also be remiss though from giving credit to cheap CNC machines and 3D printers that any jackwagon can buy and the ability to sell whatever you want on the internet.

    What we have seen in the past few years is an EXPLOSION of aftermarket parts and accessories…especially for Glocks and other polymer guns.

    I had played with “custom” Glocks for a long time, but for the most part “custom” meant changing the sights, the connector, maybe the barrel, and doing a stipple job….oh and of course…putting in ridiculously heavy guide rod.

    In the early 2010’s when Magpul was the shiz, I got talked by some co-workers into going to a class taught by Chris Costa. It was a complete waste of time and money (he spent about half the class posing for pictures), but I got to shoot a Glock 19 done up for him by a company called Salient. I was shocked by the insanely light trigger pull and the lightening cuts in the slide. I was flabbergasted by price as well, but was not shocked at all when it had some failures to feed. I asked him about the gun and he told me he was carrying it. It boggled my mind that someone, especially someone providing training to others on defensive pistolcraft would think that a trigger that light would be a good idea. His response was something along the lines of, “Dude, but it looks cool!” I shouldn’t have been surprised…

    Since that time I have seen so many aftermarket Glock slides and frames copying that “look” that it is mind boggling. SOOOOOOO many Youtube videos and Instagram posts. SOOOOO many tattooed dude-bro’s talking about “mods.” SOOOOOO much wasted money…

    What I did not expect to see, but should have seen coming, was these parts finding their way into law enforcement…

    THE CRESCENDO

    Around 2009 or so we had an otherwise very competent guy and accomplished shooter at my department stick a Ghost connector on his otherwise stock Glock 35. He also put a Surefire X200 on it the same day. He took it to the range, put a few hundred rounds through it and began carrying it. No one really saw a problem with it. A few weeks later on a prowler call he came across said prowler lurking in a bush….and promptly put a round of 40 S&W into the ground a few feet from him. The combo of the manipulating the light with his trigger finger and a super light trigger nearly lead to disaster. He immediately put the gun back to stock. Lesson learned…for him and for us as a department regarding WML’s and training.

    Flash-forward a few years and there are two guys carrying Salient Glocks and a guy with an Agency Arms Glock. I’m not a fan, but they’re carried by competent guys and the guns seem to work for them. Want to waste $2k on a $500 pistol that’s your choice.

    What happened last week though is going to cause a change.

    A guy working overtime shows up in uniform, on duty, and shoots a qual for the heck of it. His gun is a stippled factory Glock 17 Gen5 frame with an aftermarket slide (looked like moths had gotten hold of it), aftermarket barrel (fluted of course), aftermarket guide rod, aftermarket trigger, aftermarket connector, aftermarket magwell, with aftermarket magazines. Sweet.

    He literally could not make it for more than ten rounds without some type of malfunction.

    Now if this was a “play-gun” I could care less, but this was the gun he was carrying at work that night. The best part was that during his attempt to shoot the qual the RMR plate fell off the slide when the screw sheared (who cares right?). Unfortunately it made the gun stick in the Safariland ALS holster.

    Needless to say he was told he could not go back on the street with that gun. He spent the weekend finding all the factory parts he had taken off so that another armorer could put his gun back together.

    As a department we are planning to do an “armorer inspection” this fall (something we always used to do until a certain supervisor didn’t think it was necessary anymore).

    The guy with the super-modified-but-did-not-work-sorta-Glock is a young guy working nights that fancies himself a gun guy. He watched too many stupid Youtube videos and social media posts and drank the Kool-Aid. Unfortunately, it very easily could have cost him or someone working with him their lives if he had tried to rely on it in a lethal encounter.

    SO WHAT’S YOUR POINT?

    I am not against well thought out modifications to a defensive gun if they serve a purpose.

    I am totally against any modification that detracts from reliability and safety.

    Shooters, especially new shooters, are overwhelmed by the amount of aftermarket garbage being pushed on them these days. It is available and if a coolguy on the internet says it makes my thing better it must be good right?

    What I told our hapless young man with his broken roscoe that night was this:
    “A billion dollar company with a fleet of engineers in Austria came up with this thing that passed government testing and various safety tests and that same company stakes their liability on their product designed the parts you took off this gun and designed them to work in concert with one another. A dude with a CNC machine in his garage probably made most of the parts you stuck on it. Which parts do you want to trust your life on?”

    Every now and then someone may come up with a better mousetrap. I think Randy Lee with his Apex M&P trigger components is a good example. But these examples are few and far between.

    Changing the sights on a Glock to something more robust and useable is accepted common sense. I installed a Wilson barrel in my Glock 17 almost ten years ago because I wanted to shoot lead reloads safely and wanted the little bit of extra accuracy it provided at distance, but I tested the living crap out of it before I ever relied upon it to live in my duty holster.

    If you are going to modify a gun, make sure the modification has an expressed purpose and that you properly vet its reliability before trusting it with your life. Don’t just stick something on your gun because it looks cool…
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadfly View Post
    When first hired, I wondered why our gun policy was so restrictive.... then I saw what idiots do to guns. Our policy is, Leave it stock. Only factory OEM parts and Factory finishes. Even then, there can be issues.

    We issued 229 DAK, but approved personal purchase 229s in DA SA. So what starts to show up? Sig “special editions”.... yuck. No rainbow titanium, but some super polished blue and “Texas edition” stuff... “Hey, why is my gun rusting?” Uhhh, because you bought a decoration, not a real carry gun.

    We do an annual inspection of every firearm. And every year we find strange stuff.

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Having run a firearms program for 700 out of an agency of 15k LEO's I am totally with Gadfly on this one.

    I agree with you in principle but I also believe your department failed that young officer by entertaining that crap in the first place.

    The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. Socrates 400 BC
    The derp on guns is nothing new. Nothing changed around 2009 except people switched from doing stupid, poorly executed modifications to 1911's and revolvers and started doing them to polymer service pistols instead.

    I'm all for choices, a list of vetted POW weapons and a list of vetted, approved modifications and accessories etc. Bit the guns need to be armorer inspected before being placed on duty.

    Would I be OK with guys running a Glock trigger with 100% functional safeties like Robar or over watch ? sure? 25 cent trigger job ? no, regardless of who did it. I'm all for optics too but again, it would,need to be limited to either MOS type set ups or a limited number of vetted vendors like ATEI, L&M etc. Copies of the work order would need to go with the paperwork authorizing the gun for duty. More likely limited to something like MOS or a Unity slide.

    In a small enough department (< 100 ?) you can do "as approved by the armorer" but even then, the modification of accessory should be justified in writing as to "why" when submitted to the armorer for consideration. In larger agencies it is a recipe for issues exactly as you describe.

    Cops are cheap and most cops are not "gun people." They either refuse to buy anything of buy the cheapest and easiest thing they can find - see Holster, SERPA. Even among those that are, there are actual shooters and then there are the "gun fondlers" many of whom can barely qualify. It gets even more interesting when one of the gun fondlers wants to be a firearms instructor but cant shoot to the necessary standard.
    Last edited by HCM; 06-04-2019 at 11:36 PM.

  9. #19
    Site Supporter Trukinjp13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaseN View Post
    The guns I listed are plenty simple to operate, and it's easy for anyone (but especially an inexperienced person) to pull a number of rounds off target in a stressful situation, particularly with a DA pull on every round like a revolver. Coupled with limited capacity, basically zero chance of reloading, the very real possibility of multiple assailants, and the often questionable efficacy of handgun rounds, well I guess you can imagine my conclusion on revolvers for the inexperienced.
    Wife shoots my striker guns far better than she does revolvers. Heavy gun and heavy pull does not work well for her little frame. A revolver is supposedly simpler. But I have seen many people short stroke a long da trigger. While I have never seen anyone fail to complete a Glock magazine because of the trigger. She is not a gun person at all. But she quickly learned how to load the gun and chamber a round. She will never reload it in a fight realistically. So I’ll take the massive capacity advantage as well. Hell I shoot pistols Better than revolvers.


    I have never liked Gucci guns. High end Nighthawks and Wilson’s are awesome. 2500$ Glocks are fucking nuts. My Glocks have bone stock internals. (Gadgeted) it works damn good as it is. Love that gen 5 trigger. Goes bang every time guaranteed. To me a Glock always be a tool. A nice 1911 or High power is just a damn cool gun with a soul.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  10. #20
    Great Post.

    When I trained with Costa in the fall of 2009 he was with Magpul Dynamics before he had that heavily modified Glock.


    Quote Originally Posted by KevH View Post
    Then the wheels fell off…


    For anyone interested in a CHris Costa action figure, there are a few available on Ebay.

    Disclaimer: I am not the seller of the Chris Costa action figures, not do I own one, or any other action figures.

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