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Thread: No-gi vs gi for self-defense

  1. #51
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    Now, I'm no one special. I'm the breathing grappling dummy for a purple belt out of a good gym and a guy with a lot of time striking, and a tiny bit of wrestling. I'm not LE, MIL, alphabet agency or anything.

    On GI/no-gi: As a guy who has been athletic and loved competing in things, I can see the physical attributes leaving me and I get home much they matter in no-gi. There is a time for dinner of it, but I feel like gi work makes me pay more attention and have to keep my head about me more than no-gi. We have contemplated a tee shirt and jeans nights on the mats. It is a throw away the shirt night and we don't want to damage our mats with the brads on the jeans. Anyone played that game to see what happens?

    On cheap shots/dirty tactics:. I am a traditional ma guy. Groin shots, eye attacks have always been there. And they have a context to them a lot of schools breeze right past. They aren't fight stoppers. They are a tactic to create a reaction and buy time. Just like BJJ techniques, if applied out of context they can land you in a worse position than you started in. Biting, there is no really good way to train. Eye gouges, if you can touch your partner's forehead, you could have gotten the gouge. If you can grab a belt or inner thigh/pant leg, you reach the groin. You need to be in a position of control to do those things though.

    And the ability to grapple, especially on the feet is where you get that control.

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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorikid View Post
    They aren't fight stoppers. They are a tactic to create a reaction and buy time.
    Instructor at an Insights class had an anecdote about sticking a thumb in someone's eye, something along the lines of "It wasn't a fight stopper but it definitely was a fight pauser...."

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Chain View Post
    Cecil, the point about fighting for top even in gi is a great one that I will try to remember. Beyond position, are there any techniques that translate particularly well across gi and no gi?
    The fundamental hook and tie game - wrist, elbow, under, over : plus armdrags, duckunders, 2on1s,

    Head and elbow position becomes paramount

    Kimuras and americanas (the only issue with americanas is that your top control has to be really tight. it is one of my main subs, but a lot of people never get them because they allow the guy on bottom to move too much

    Guillotines, RNC, D'arce chokes

    leg attacks - but be EXTREMELY careful about relying on them if self-defense is your primary goal. Having both your arms tied up with hsi legs while his arms are totally free is not a great idea in a weapons based environment

    That is probably it for consistently available attacks in both realms
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  4. #54
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    I was just about to ask about the leg game. The metagame for no-gi has gone heavily in that direction recently, and it has been shown to be effective in MMA, at least. But when the guy can pull out a knife and start stabbing your leg while you wreck his knee... sounds like you could easily end in a no-win scenario.

    Personally I enjoy no-gi more because it forces people to control from pressure, wedges, and balance instead of using their grips as a crutch. But I'm just a blue belt, I'll freely admit I don't know anything, and I'm also probably taking some advantage of the youth and athleticism you mentioned before (although I don't have *that* much of either of those, heh).

    When you train gi, do you train the full complement of leglocks or do you limit yourself to the IBJJF Gracie-approved stuff? I've found that most people automatically fall into sort of standard competition rules when training. At least enough that I feel like a jerk if I surprise someone with a heel hook in gi. So that is at least part of why I like to train both, if I want to learn the modern leglock game. I hate the idea of giving up top position to chase someone's legs, but using it as an efficient threat from guard fits right into fundamental concepts of BJJ.
    Last edited by ford.304; 06-18-2019 at 11:57 AM.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by ford.304 View Post

    When you train gi, do you train the full complement of leglocks or do you limit yourself to the IBJJF Gracie-approved stuff? I've found that most people automatically fall into sort of standard competition rules when training. At least enough that I feel like a jerk if I surprise someone with a heel hook in gi. So that is at least part of why I like to train both, if I want to learn the modern leglock game. I hate the idea of giving up top position to chase someone's legs, but using it as an efficient threat from guard fits right into fundamental concepts of BJJ.

    I think leglocks should be part of the game, but I am not a fan of heel hooks regardless. I think it is fine to simulate those attacks and set them up and maybe even start the gripping process, but not actually doing it. The fact is that heel hooks are incredibly dangerous. I know what all the hot shot guys in no-gi are saying, but before we take their word as gospel, look at them. They are all young and fit athletes in their prime. It is very easy for them to say "heel hooks are not that dangerous, they don't do that much damage" when their bodies are young enough to be resilient. I want to see how they move in 15 or 20 years. Being about to turn 55, and having done BJJ for 30 years, I can tell you that you can get away with a lot of hardcore stuff in your 20's and 30's that WILL come back to bite you in the ass when you move north of 40.

    I think they should be worked and understood, especially the way the Danaher Death Squad is integrating them, but the twisting attacks need to be carefully done and monitored and not taken for granted.
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  6. #56
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    For what it's worth, I agree with you 100%. I love leg attacks, love the Danaher-style system of "leg entanglements as control" the same way as the rest of Jiu Jitsu -- but I will admit that I am terrified of actually competing in anything serious that allows heel hooks.

    I was taught to always be ready to release when attacking, to never crank quickly, and to tap as soon as the guy has his grips set. I've been through one ACL surgery already before I started BJJ, I don't need another.

    Although I wish that people would treat shoulder locks with some of the same care they do leglocks. Yeah, you've got more feedback to make you tap, but a torn rotator cuff scares me every bit as much as a blown ligament.

    It's very odd thinking about this stuff in a self-defense context. I'm pretty sure that RNCing someone has more direct legal implications than blowing up his knee, but...ew, I know which I'd rather do to someone if I got to choose.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ford.304 View Post
    For what it's worth, I agree with you 100%. I love leg attacks, love the Danaher-style system of "leg entanglements as control" the same way as the rest of Jiu Jitsu -- but I will admit that I am terrified of actually competing in anything serious that allows heel hooks.

    I was taught to always be ready to release when attacking, to never crank quickly, and to tap as soon as the guy has his grips set. I've been through one ACL surgery already before I started BJJ, I don't need another.

    Although I wish that people would treat shoulder locks with some of the same care they do leglocks. Yeah, you've got more feedback to make you tap, but a torn rotator cuff scares me every bit as much as a blown ligament.

    It's very odd thinking about this stuff in a self-defense context. I'm pretty sure that RNCing someone has more direct legal implications than blowing up his knee, but...ew, I know which I'd rather do to someone if I got to choose.
    Keep in mind the context I'm coming from regarding leg locks. I'm a white belt, in that I learn from my brother who is a 1 stripe purple from a solid school. I have been defending and learning foot locks/leg attacks since he was a new blue belt. He has used them freely on all rank levels since that time in his gym. Plenty of their folks compete, plenty are employed for security at federal power facilities, and they have a good number of pro mma fighters at all levels of the game. So, they are not a strict competition or self defense school.

    Touching on the legality of ripping a knee or an RNC, I'll disagree there. A potentially life altering injury, needing surgery, often multiples, to repair vs. a choke that barring death is without I'll effects 10 minutes after it is applied.

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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorikid View Post

    Touching on the legality of ripping a knee or an RNC, I'll disagree there. A potentially life altering injury, needing surgery, often multiples, to repair vs. a choke that barring death is without I'll effects 10 minutes after it is applied.

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    I mean, barstool lawyering here, but while both threaten death or grievous bodily injury, some states have added explicit felony escalations for strangling. These are generally aimed at domestic violence incidents, but still apply generally.

    Chokes are such a weird middle ground... where if they're being applied to you by someone with ill intent, they're equivalent to being shot in the face in terms of threat levels. But if they're being applied by a "good guy" they're safer than a taser...

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by ford.304 View Post
    I mean, barstool lawyering here, but while both threaten death or grievous bodily injury, some states have added explicit felony escalations for strangling. These are generally aimed at domestic violence incidents, but still apply generally.

    Chokes are such a weird middle ground... where if they're being applied to you by someone with ill intent, they're equivalent to being shot in the face in terms of threat levels. But if they're being applied by a "good guy" they're safer than a taser...
    I only practice bar stool law after 3 drinks. Seriously though, I understand that. This is a point where articulation of your use of force becomes important, just like when weapons are employed. It also would be beneficial to have a coach/professor that is willing and able to clearly explain how the RNC works and why it is safe to employ in SD verse a bear handed grab to the throat those strangulation laws are aimed at.
    Edit: Also being aware of local laws, especially your native law or the locations you are frequently in, is very important here.

    Side note, if you want a constant migraine, travel through 14 states in about as many days, with frequent stops while ccw-ing and try to keep the laws straight.

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    Last edited by Shorikid; 06-20-2019 at 08:18 AM.

  10. #60
    The instructor is far more more important than the choice of clothing.

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