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Thread: No-gi vs gi for self-defense

  1. #1

    No-gi vs gi for self-defense

    I wrote this on my blog a couple of weeks ago but I thought re-posting it here may be helpful or informative for readers here, especially those who are new to H2H or grappling.

    It is not a secret to many people that know me that I am not a huge fan of no-gi training, especially in a self-defense context.

    Mostly my opposition to it revolves around a couple of things.

    Unless we are anticipating fighting a greased up naked dude, there is a very good chance we will have handles of some kind that we can use to improve our chance of survival. This is not to say that those handles will always be the exact equivalent of gis, but more than likely they will be something that can be used in a similar fashion. Just having the knowledge and capability of controlling the sleeves/arms of the other guy and tying him up in a way that makes it hard for him to do something violent and offensive towards you may well be the single greatest technique to use in an entangled fight. I regularly teach, and have taught for more than 14 years, the ability for someone to use the choking strategies of BJJ and apply them to something as simple as a t-shirt. To this day, even against someone resisting violently, I have yet to have a t-shirt rip and render the choke impossible. With all that, it just makes sense that if we are truly focused on self-defense that spending the majority of our training time in the gi is a good thing.

    No-gi, as even its most vociferous proponents will agree, is a young man’s game. It relies on strength, speed, aggression, mobility, cardiovascular conditioning, etc. to be consistently successful. A heavy reliance which is great if you have those things but not so awesome if you don’t, and, let’s face it, it is far more likely to be true for those of us in the real world and just everyday people and not professional athletes in their physical prime. We cannot rely on those things to pull us through. In fact, we need to start with the premise that all of our opponents will be bigger, stronger, tougher, faster, meaner, more aggressive, less injured, have the initiative, and any other attribute we can think of. That needs to be our philosophical starting point.

    Does that mean I am dead set against no-gi, or that I believe that is has no value at all for self-defense? I am in no way saying that. I think there are some spots that no-gi training shines, and while those spots may be less important or less necessary, does not meant they should be ignored.

    Where no-gi shines is:

    You must actively and continuously be trying to control the other guy’s arms. Because there is no way to grab and lock down and just hold them, no-gi forces you into a very aggressive and constant attempt to secure as much control over the arms as possible. And if that control only lasts a moment, then you have to go right back to retrieving it. This is a great benefit in a self-preservation context because we must make sure that the other person cannot freely strike us or have free reign to deploy a weapon into the fight. Gi work gives you a better idea of how to control. And no-gi gets you used to fighting for it all the time.

    It is difficult and somewhat low percentage to fight from the bottom in no-gi. Even a great guard player is extremely restricted in his ability to attack, so the better strategy is to fight from the top or have back control. So in no-gi, you have to put a premium on constantly working to drive your hips over and to come up and be upright. And of course this may very well be the single best tactical plan if we are fighting for our lives in the street.

    Even though I dislike no-gi, I do think that not only does it offer some value for self-defense, but it also is just good practice to work it on its own anyway. I follow Stephen Kesting’s dictum that BJJ training should be 80/20. 80% of the time do your preferred type or work, and 20% do the other, regardless of personal taste or preference.
    For info about training or to contact me:
    Immediate Action Combatives

  2. #2
    Hammertime
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    Thank you for bringing that here Cecil. I would love to see you posting more. I am sorry but I don’t always remember to check your blog, but when I do it is filled with awesome.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Glock View Post
    Thank you for bringing that here Cecil. I would love to see you posting more. I am sorry but I don’t always remember to check your blog, but when I do it is filled with awesome.
    Thank you. I appreciate that very much.

    I’ve always been somewhat reluctant to post too much here because there has not been a specific forum to talk about the area that I am (perhaps) an SME, and I did not want to just post Combatives crap all over when I was not sure if more than a handful of people cared. I always enjoyed answering questions but I didn’t wan’t to start that kind of conversation too often. With this sub-forum, at least people who are not interested can ignore it, so I plan to regularly write here. It’s kind of a thank you to Todd who supported and encouraged me incessantly (after we stopped hating each other!) and to Tom who has truly gone out of his way to support me, and to LL who has as well.
    Last edited by Cecil Burch; 06-03-2019 at 09:40 AM.
    For info about training or to contact me:
    Immediate Action Combatives

  4. #4
    banana republican blues's Avatar
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    Cecil, your insights and perspectives, (and this goes for Craig as well), are appreciated even by those of us who have been out of the combatives game for some time. Knowledge is power, and awareness its indispensable sibling.

    Thanks for sharing them here.
    There's nothing civil about this war.

    Read: Harrison Bergeron

  5. #5
    What about 'half gi', like rolling in gi pants and t-shirt?

  6. #6
    Member
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    Great points; when I was actively competing in MMA, I always trained for self-defense and stayed in shape. With the exception of a 6-8 week fight camp, all of my time was spent training in a Gi. I live in the North, so we are in heavier clothing for a majority of the year. Unless I am fighting a sun lotion’d up guy on the beach or competing in MMA, no-Gi training is not a better investment of my time.

    I also agree that fighting off of your back is very low percentage in no-Gi. However, with a Gi (or clothing) I would consider it a somewhat “even” position for someone with a really good guard. We can obviously write a book regarding the disadvantages of having your head close to concrete, but sometimes you don’t have a choice.

    Glad to see this sub-forum is officially off and running!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by pooty View Post
    What about 'half gi', like rolling in gi pants and t-shirt?
    My personal opinion is that you can, but establish the “rules” beforehand. If you can grab the pants, then agree to grab the shirt.

    All-or-nothing, based on what your training purpose is during that session.
    Last edited by GAP; 06-03-2019 at 03:22 PM.

  8. #8
    Member Balisong's Avatar
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    I had actually been curious about this topic for some time. Thank you for the insight and perspective!

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil Burch View Post
    Unless we are anticipating fighting a greased up naked dude, there is a very good chance we will have handles of some kind that we can use to improve our chance of survival. This is not to say that those handles will always be the exact equivalent of gis, but more than likely they will be something that can be used in a similar fashion. Just having the knowledge and capability of controlling the sleeves/arms of the other guy and tying him up in a way that makes it hard for him to do something violent and offensive towards you may well be the single greatest technique to use in an entangled fight. I regularly teach, and have taught for more than 14 years, the ability for someone to use the choking strategies of BJJ and apply them to something as simple as a t-shirt. To this day, even against someone resisting violently, I have yet to have a t-shirt rip and render the choke impossible. With all that, it just makes sense that if we are truly focused on self-defense that spending the majority of our training time in the gi is a good thing.
    Context: Former wrestler who has appreciated and made use of (oh, I see you're wearing a hoodie...) the extra handles in the very rare cases where that was relevant. That's an excellent point.

    However, and I am not challenging but asking in the hopes of clarifying, the last sentence in that para seems to argue to opposite.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by randyho View Post
    Context: Former wrestler who has appreciated and made use of (oh, I see you're wearing a hoodie...) the extra handles in the very rare cases where that was relevant. That's an excellent point.

    However, and I am not challenging but asking in the hopes of clarifying, the last sentence in that para seems to argue to opposite.
    People we tend to need to defend ourselves against in general wear clothes, so it makes sense to spend time training that way to my way of thinking. I have been very successful in using t-shirts for handles, as have a number of people.
    Last edited by Cecil Burch; 06-03-2019 at 07:05 PM.
    For info about training or to contact me:
    Immediate Action Combatives

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