RFI: Brass Knuckles

[Gray01]

BITD, our uniforms had Sap pockets, and both Sap gloves and Saps were authorized.

[gringop]

I have one of these inbound, I'll report on it when I have it.

Boston Leather 5415-1
Midget Sap 6.75" Long
Heavy Duty (4 Ply)


Thank you Gov Abbot and whoever submitted this legislation.

Gringop

[Jamie]

Just some Old School Goodness.

I've never carried the knuckles. I was given stainless steel knuckles by my father in the late 1960's. He did carry them from time to time... different time and different place.

I do love a nice flat sap though.

[Brian T]

Thank you Gov Abbot and whoever submitted this legislation.

Gringop

A democrat

Bill author Rep. Joe Moody, D-El Paso, said lifting the ban was "another step" toward getting rid of "antiquated laws regarding weapons."

"We did it with switchblades. We did it with knives and now with knuckles," Moody said May 15, when the Texas Senate gave the bill final passage. "Hopefully, now, with this on the way to the governor, we can ensure these types of laws aren't being used inappropriately to go after folks who have legitimate tools of self defense."

As for knucks, for novelty, I am in. For carry, I am out. I cant see getting to them in time, as someone else mentioned, and I need to go to guns, I dont want to have to take them off to use my heater. I am in on leadshot filled saps and blackjacks though, and I am eyeballing the smaller Asp collapsible batons. Before I buy a baton I'd like to find some quality training, less I line more door-knocking knuckles up, step into the swing, pivot on the back foot and smack a noggin like a drive to deep center field.

[Willard]

I have one of these inbound, I'll report on it when I have it.

Boston Leather 5415-1
Midget Sap 6.75" Long
Heavy Duty (4 Ply)


Thank you Gov Abbot and whoever submitted this legislation.

Gringop

I was of the understanding this legislation was only brass knocks and the "club" aspect of TX law remained unchanged...did I miss that?

[Tactical Black Belt]

Here is a little secret that I probably should not disseminate on line though we have taught it for years. A round combination lock with the one finger looped through the hasp makes a devastating one finger brass knuckle. It is more effective than the traditional variety as all the force is concentrated on one striking surface rather than spread out over four. The best thing is locks are legal practically everywhere and nobody will think of it as a weapon. The trick is to find one that fits your hand and practice hitting the heavy bag with it until it feels natural otherwise you could injure your hand. and PLEASE, if Heaven forbid you do have to hit someone with it, stay off the cranium if at all possible because this can cause a serious skull fracture and might kill the person.

[gringop]

I was of the understanding this legislation was only brass knocks and the "club" aspect of TX law remained unchanged...did I miss that?

Here is what I am seeing WRT to the updated law.

Holy crap what a wormhole this turned out to be.

****************************
Parts of the bill pertaining to knuckles.
***********************
(a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally
or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or
sells:
(1) any of the following items, unless the item is
registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer
Record maintained by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and
Explosives or otherwise not subject to that registration
requirement or unless the item is classified as a curio or relic by
the United States Department of Justice:
(A) an explosive weapon;
(B) a machine gun; or
(C) a short-barrel firearm;
(2) [knuckles; (in the Actual bill online the word knuckles has been struck through and other numbers struck through to update the numbering)

SECTION 2. Section 46.01(8), Penal Code, is repealed.

************************************************** **


Section 46.01 of the Texas Penal code.

Note the club definition in (A) specificly mentions Blackjack.
The section 8 that is repealed above defines Knuckles"
********************

PENAL CODE

TITLE 10. OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC HEALTH, SAFETY, AND MORALS

CHAPTER 46. WEAPONS

Sec. 46.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:
(1) "Club" means an instrument that is specially designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of inflicting serious bodily injury or death by striking a person with the instrument, and includes but is not limited to the following:
(A) blackjack;
(B) nightstick;
(C) mace;
(D) tomahawk.
(2) "Explosive weapon" means any explosive or incendiary bomb, grenade, rocket, or mine, that is designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of inflicting serious bodily injury, death, or substantial property damage, or for the principal purpose of causing such a loud report as to cause undue public alarm or terror, and includes a device designed, made, or adapted for delivery or shooting an explosive weapon.
(3) "Firearm" means any device designed, made, or adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance or any device readily convertible to that use. Firearm does not include a firearm that may have, as an integral part, a folding knife blade or other characteristics of weapons made illegal by this chapter and that is:
(A) an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899; or
(B) a replica of an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899, but only if the replica does not use rim fire or center fire ammunition.
(4) "Firearm silencer" means any device designed, made, or adapted to muffle the report of a firearm.
(5) "Handgun" means any firearm that is designed, made, or adapted to be fired with one hand.
(6) "Location-restricted knife" means a knife with a blade over five and one-half inches.
(7) "Knife" means any bladed hand instrument that is capable of inflicting serious bodily injury or death by cutting or stabbing a person with the instrument.
(8) "Knuckles" means any instrument that consists of finger rings or guards made of a hard substance and that is designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of inflicting serious bodily injury or death by striking a person with a fist enclosed in the knuckles.

Now we get to the club/blackjack parts.

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person:
(1) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun or club; and
(2) is not:
(A) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or
(B) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control.

and now nonaplicability:

Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY.

(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(snip)
(2) is traveling;
(3) is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor's residence, motor vehicle, or watercraft, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;
(snip)
(6) is carrying:
(A) a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a handgun; and
(B) a handgun:
(i) in a concealed manner; or
(ii) in a shoulder or belt holster;
**************************************
Links to the Bill and Code
https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/86...l/HB00446H.htm
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/D.../htm/PE.46.htm
******************************


So to sum it up, the law as it is written allows me to carry a club (blackjack or sap) as long as I am on my property or going to or in my vehicle. Also if I am traveling or engaging an hunting, fishing or sporting activity (International Defensive Sapping Association anyone?) Or if I have a LTC and am carrying.

I know that written law is not the same as proven law but I'm willing to take the risk of carrying a sap in the same manner as I carry my handgun, alertly and discreetly.

Gringop


ETA. Willard is correct that this latest bill did not change the laws on Clubs/Blackjacks in Texas. The written law on nonaplicability has been around for years and has been much debated in CHL discussions. What the heck, this forum has cost me money for SCDs and YHM cans, might as well add saps, too. Dang enablers.

[NickA]

So apparently the news stories I was seeing were (no surprise) incorrect; my apologies for bringing confusion to the thread.
In that case this is a pretty useless development from a self defense standpoint. Like others have stated I'd be really hesitant to hit someone with brass knuckles unless I felt justified in using lethal force, and in that case there's better tools.
But the guy who introduced the law gets to crow about being 2A friendly or whatever, and I guess that's really the important thing. Can't wait to see what other goofy useless shit we're allowed to carry next [emoji41]

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[Zincwarrior]

I saw that Texas bill signing article. Amazing, really.

True brass knucks are most def lethal tools. A pair in the hands of someone who can box is nothing to trifle with. A good set of vintage-style cop brass knuckles running 11-15oz is great fun to (gently) hit old wooden beams and posts with. If the finger holes are too thick, they can transfer force laterally to your index and pinky fingers; no bueno. I wouldn’t carry them, but if they’re legal in your state, you may as well buy a nice set just for kicks—even the good ones are relatively inexpensive. JMO.

They have also cleared "cats eye" brass knuckles. I have seen one or two similar items on the key chains of my daughter's friends. I could see them as a use for women, just holding them in their hand as they go to and from the parking lot in case they are attacked. In Texas, women still have the "your honor he needed killin" defense (thats at least what the wife tells me...), and I don't imagine juries would be too objective to women having them and using them to fight off an attacker.

[NickA]

Here is what I am seeing WRT to the updated law.

Holy crap what a wormhole this turned out to be.

****************************
Parts of the bill pertaining to knuckles.
***********************
(a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally
or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or
sells:
(1) any of the following items, unless the item is
registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer
Record maintained by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and
Explosives or otherwise not subject to that registration
requirement or unless the item is classified as a curio or relic by
the United States Department of Justice:
(A) an explosive weapon;
(B) a machine gun; or
(C) a short-barrel firearm;
(2) [knuckles; (in the Actual bill online the word knuckles has been struck through and other numbers struck through to update the numbering)

SECTION 2. Section 46.01(8), Penal Code, is repealed.

************************************************** **


Section 46.01 of the Texas Penal code.

Note the club definition in (A) specificly mentions Blackjack.
The section 8 that is repealed above defines Knuckles"
********************

PENAL CODE

TITLE 10. OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC HEALTH, SAFETY, AND MORALS

CHAPTER 46. WEAPONS

Sec. 46.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:
(1) "Club" means an instrument that is specially designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of inflicting serious bodily injury or death by striking a person with the instrument, and includes but is not limited to the following:
(A) blackjack;
(B) nightstick;
(C) mace;
(D) tomahawk.
(2) "Explosive weapon" means any explosive or incendiary bomb, grenade, rocket, or mine, that is designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of inflicting serious bodily injury, death, or substantial property damage, or for the principal purpose of causing such a loud report as to cause undue public alarm or terror, and includes a device designed, made, or adapted for delivery or shooting an explosive weapon.
(3) "Firearm" means any device designed, made, or adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance or any device readily convertible to that use. Firearm does not include a firearm that may have, as an integral part, a folding knife blade or other characteristics of weapons made illegal by this chapter and that is:
(A) an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899; or
(B) a replica of an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899, but only if the replica does not use rim fire or center fire ammunition.
(4) "Firearm silencer" means any device designed, made, or adapted to muffle the report of a firearm.
(5) "Handgun" means any firearm that is designed, made, or adapted to be fired with one hand.
(6) "Location-restricted knife" means a knife with a blade over five and one-half inches.
(7) "Knife" means any bladed hand instrument that is capable of inflicting serious bodily injury or death by cutting or stabbing a person with the instrument.
(8) "Knuckles" means any instrument that consists of finger rings or guards made of a hard substance and that is designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of inflicting serious bodily injury or death by striking a person with a fist enclosed in the knuckles.

Now we get to the club/blackjack parts.

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person:
(1) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun or club; and
(2) is not:
(A) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or
(B) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control.

and now nonaplicability:

Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY.

(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(snip)
(2) is traveling;
(3) is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor's residence, motor vehicle, or watercraft, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;
(snip)
(6) is carrying:
(A) a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a handgun; and
(B) a handgun:
(i) in a concealed manner; or
(ii) in a shoulder or belt holster;
**************************************
Links to the Bill and Code
https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/86...l/HB00446H.htm
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/D.../htm/PE.46.htm
******************************


So to sum it up, the law as it is written allows me to carry a club (blackjack or sap) as long as I am on my property or going to or in my vehicle. Also if I am traveling or engaging an hunting, fishing or sporting activity (International Defensive Sapping Association anyone?) Or if I have a LTC and am carrying.

I know that written law is not the same as proven law but I'm willing to take the risk of carrying a sap in the same manner as I carry my handgun, alertly and discreetly.

Gringop


ETA. Willard is correct that this latest bill did not change the laws on Clubs/Blackjacks in Texas. The written law on nonaplicability has been around for years and has been much debated in CHL discussions. What the heck, this forum has cost me money for SCDs and YHM cans, might as well add saps, too. Dang enablers.

Despite my rant above, I couldn't resist looking into this more. According to this link with text of the bill, "club" is stricken out so they would be legal.
https://legiscan.com/TX/text/HB446/id/2018984

Discussion on some TX specific gun fora backs that up.


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